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Yea its not the most astatically pleasing stuff but if a person is trying to cross above ground then it will slow them. The tunnels should be something that we seek out and put an end to as well. Explosives to collapse tunnels would be fairly cheap all in all. Honestly I don't care if we have a wall or just hire enough people to have eyes on the entire border 24/7, line up the troops and shoot anyone crossing outside of a port of entry, or whatever needs to happen. I do believe the process to become a citizen needs to be streamlined and made much easier not to mention be a whole hell of a lot cheaper but even with all of that done we still need to be sure we can do a good job of keeping people from entering the US illegally.

Apparently the committee did say that they all agree that some of the spending bill will need to be set for physical barriers so there is some hope that a bipartisan bill will come out next week and maybe just maybe it will include enough for physical barriers that Trump will sign off on it and we will avoid another shutdown. We will just have to wait and see.
 

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Setting explosives in urban El Paso, for example, is a non-starter. Plus, you have to find the tunnel. A fence or a roll of wire, or whatever, will slow people down for a little bit. Not very long. Besides, most of the problems with drug imports and the like are at other ports of entry. The administration wants to spend a whole lot of money on an ineffective ego trip. It's stupid. I hope it gets shot down once and for all.
 

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From what I was reading it would seem everyone agreed to a lesser amount for the wall funding something like 2 billion and had a clear path to pass something this week. Then if I was reading it right the Dems threw in that they wanted the beds for detaining illegal immigrants dropped to 16500 or something when we currently have over 40k. It would seem at this point that no bill will be signed in time to avoid a shutdown. I honestly hope they get back to what everyone already agreed on and get it done but it almost seems like someone is trying to mess up the deal.
 

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I don't know what's going on exactly. There are messes everywhere. Virginia has pushed the orange guppy and his tantrums off the front page. That's gotta bug an attention whore like Trump a lot.
 

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It would seem this bill is something that Trump will sign so maybe we wont have another shutdown after all. At least not till September. We will see how it goes I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
What we can all be sure of is that trump will continue to diviide the electorate into "us" and "them" camps. The GOP theme is now "Socialism" Democrats will be demonized as leftie Socialists who want government to take over everything: the so-called Nannystate. We got a taste of 2020 in the SOTU speech:

Here, in the United States, we are alarmed by new calls to adopt socialism in our country. America was founded on liberty and independence — not government coercion, domination, and control. We are born free, and we will stay free. Tonight, we renew our resolve that America will never be a socialist country.
This will be what the GOP and Trump run on. Once again, it's divide and conquer. The Democratic candidate will have to address this tried and true strategy. What makes it more difficult is that we're in the middle of a new, post-industrial age, in which manual skills are becoming less and less valuable, particularly in the center of the country. This is why the old blue collar voter is scared of immigrants coming in an "stealing" their jobs. Whether true or not is not the question. The question is whether or not Trump can exploit that fear. So far, he has. Trump is using classic authoritarian tactics ("Only I can fix the problem"); the same ones Mussolini and Hitler employed successfully.

The Democratic Party had better understand that only a campaign of what can be rather than what cannot be can work against fear. This is what FDR knew in 1932. He offered hope in the middle of a Depression and people responded. Campaigning on "I hate Trump" will not get them the White House. It has to be more.

The biggest problem right now is staying in the center. The newly elected Democrats in the House need to remember extremism on the left is as bad as on the right. The GOP has already sniffed out the potential for division among Democrats. Trump has sniffed it out. 2020 is definitely not a lock for the Democratic Party.
 

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The Trump GOP is the wuss party. Hide under the bed and be afraid. Being a complete coward is the right wing imperative. Speaking of cowards, spineless Mitch McConnell just sold everyone down the river by more or less saying it was fine for Trump to act like his royal nibs with appropriated funds. We only have an emergency in that Trump's ego wants a wall and he will throw a tantrum if he doesn't get it. We are being governed by the big orange baby and probably the most craven politician of our time. Even Paul Ryan deserves less scorn than McConnell. If the idiot right doesn't understand how McConnell just fucked them over hard, all they have to do is understand that the worm turns, and the next president probably won't be another dumbass GOPer. Trump and McConnell stuffed a wall up the nation's ass. Those who didn't want that will remember. Other things are going to get stuffed up the right's ass. Bend over and enjoy it when it comes. Trump's bullshit national emergency and misappropriation of funds is a constitutional violation. Not just an amendment, the original document. Ammosexuals' guns are now officially in jeopardy. Suck it, cowards. Here it comes, thanks to your own short sighted idiocy. More people get killed by guns than aliens. That's an emergency, too, according to logic used by the wuss party. The GOP has now completely fucked us all hard, including themselves. I hope they are proud.
 

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I personally was not for the national emergency for the wall and only time will tell how that turns out. I also doubt anyone would try to use it to ban guns but then I didn't think he would try it for the wall funding so I could be wrong. I think that most would realize that the issues would not be just in court if a national emergency was declared trying to round up all the guns. I don't think any POTUS would want to own the cost of it even if somehow it was successful in the end.

In any case I honestly thought Trump would use the money given in this bill to build as much of the wall (or barrier) as he can until September then hold out once again for the rest of it.
 

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Trump grandstands. Plus, he has a massive edifice complex. He wants a wall as a monument to Trump. He doesn't much seem to care if it does anything useful, but useful fools who can be made into fearful cowards who support whatever he wants are useful to him.

By definition, half the population is below average intelligence. Dumb people go for easy, simple solutions to complex problems, right or left. Simple solutions sometimes are the best, but often come with untended consequences. The emergency declaration will have plenty of unintended consequences that the right won't like at all. Taxes? The debt is a national emergency. Think about that for a moment. The wall goes right through a whole lot of private property. Private property is only taken away by "socialists" who are unAmerican, or is it? Once you head down the path, where does it stop?

Think it through. Trump is doing endless damage to the nation and to the dumb people who support him. They are just dumb and can't figure it out yet.
 

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As far as the private property thing I have seen people loose parts of their land before so a rail line can be put in. They got paid for it but they had no choice. A friend ended up having his land split in half with the house on one side of the railroad and the barn on the other side.

Anyway I am sure the courts will stop the state of emergency thing and keep it from hurting anyone.
 

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I'm not counting on the courts holding off Trump and his crazy train forever. Pelosi is going to introduce a bill attempting to stop the "emergency" in the House. Chances are that it will pass. Then the Senate has to take it up. That puts McConnell in a bind. He has been hiding Republican Senators behind inaction so far. That's not possible with this one, so his sneak and hide tactics won't work. The Republican Senators who would just as soon not be on record one way or another are going to be exposed to making a choice for a change. Susan Collins, we are looking at you. There will be plenty of others who will have to be loyal Trumpsters or loyal Americans. It's not a good place to be if you are a Republican who has to get reelected in the coming election cycle, especially if the economy is slowing even slightly.
 

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As far as the private property thing I have seen people loose parts of their land before so a rail line can be put in. They got paid for it but they had no choice. A friend ended up having his land split in half with the house on one side of the railroad and the barn on the other side.

Anyway I am sure the courts will stop the state of emergency thing and keep it from hurting anyone.
If Trump does get his wall, there's lots of bizarre cases that will need to be solved. And as always, the devil is in the details

- a large portion of the Texas - Mexico border is in fact the Rio Grande river. The border is in the middle of the river. So where does Trump build his wall? Middle of the river (technically and environmentally impossible). Our side of the river - we then effectively cede the river to Mexico, and its water rights??. Mexico's side of the river ( we must first steal the river land from Mexico.)

- what about the Native American tribes that have land on both sides of the border?

- there are many land owners that have land that crosses the border, and they graze their animals on all of their land.
 

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Plus, when people start singing the praises of walls at borders, I'm happy to point them to our man at the battle of Jericho. Chances are pretty good that Hebrew miners were involved, and they tunneled a bit, which allowed the walls to become unstable and fall. Hmmm... See any precedent for what has already been pretty well documented going under border walls already? Gosh, maybe we should just ask Mike Pence. He is a religious guy. He should know that walls like this don't do fuckall.
 

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I agree that walls and fences are not enough alone. It has to include technology and manpower to work. Plenty of examples of how well it works when done properly in our country. Many things need to change with our immigration policy and plenty of other things as well. What's the best answer? I have no clue at this point tbh. I still think the emergency declaration will be stopped but we will see soon enough I guess.
 

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I suspect it's all a grandstanding ploy. That's all Trump does anyway. He's going to get rolled by North Korea. Art of the Deal? The man can't negotiate his way out of a paper bag unless he can cheat and bully. He really isn't very bright, even though he thinks he's a genius. Oh, well. It won't be the first time an inflated ego masked reality. Too bad it's going to screw America for a very long time.

Michael Cohen is testifying on the Hill today. There will be some fireworks, but I don't expect much to come of it. The GOP has absolutely no spine and will accept any amount of criminality from one of their own. They will make some pious comments and wring their hands a little, but ultimately, if they can retain power, that's all they care about. If that wasn't clear before, it should be painfully obvious to everyone by now. The GOPers who control the Senate will make sure that Trump does not get held accountable. The divide and conquer strategy will continue on unpunished, at least until 2020. There will be no impeachment, whether it's deserved or not. If Cohen can be believed, Trump was certainly involved in a conspiracy with foreign agents. I expect that he's probably an unwitting Russian asset at this point. He's a complete stooge, they know it, and they know how to use him. The GOP is now the party of a Russian stooge. I wonder how long it will take before McConnell realizes he's protecting a national security threat. And more to the point, how long he will continue to protect that national security threat once he figures it out.

They are a traitorous bunch, but so it goes. We elected 'em as a nation, so we must not care much about America.
 

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I am sure that if the Russian ties are true then they will come out when Muller hands over his investigation reports. If the investigation shows such then it would be hard for anyone not to impeach him.
 

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What it will show is that Trump and his cohort are the gang that can't shoot straight. My expectation is that the Mueller report will not show an organized conspiracy of the kind that will make removal, impeachment, or resignation inevitable. What I expect it will show is that Trump's campaign accepted aid from Russian agents in a bumbling, incompetent way. Trump, as the insulated boss man that he is, probably maintained a certain amount of plausible deniability, to use an appropriate term coined by a far more competent Republican President.

Trump will claim ignorance. Unlike Nixon, he may indeed be ignorant. It's still on his watch and it's still his responsibility.

https://youtu.be/wTLKDKYf9Vw
 

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Pelosi got it right, as far as I can tell. Trying to impeach Trump would only turn him into a more petulant version of Bill Clinton. Poor little harassed snowflake Don. Better to let him stew in his own juices, try to limit the damage he does, and let the voters decide whether to keep him or oust him. Mueller won't have a Nixon tape, most likely, and even if he does, there's the likelihood that Barr will bury it. Mueller might get subpoenaed by Congress if his report is quashed. That would be interesting. The big problem with keeping Trump spun up is that he might start a war or something somewhere as a distraction. He's fully capable of that. Venezuela appears to be the likely candidate for a distraction attack. Dumb'ya had Iraq, Snowflake Donny will have Venezuela, both with unfortunate long-term consequences. Unlike Dumb'ya, there's no 911 that makes an invasion of somewhere likely to boost his ratings among any but his cadre of dim witted brownshirts.
 

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Pelosi got it right, as far as I can tell. .
I don't particularly like Pelosi, but since retaking the speaker position I have to give her a lot of credit. I especially like the small glass jar she keeps on her office desk right up front.... you know the glass jar where she keeps Trump's balls. :grin:
 

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She certainly seems to know where to stick pins to get him wound up and do dumb things. The bill to override the bullshit "emergency" was one Senator short of a veto-override tally because Thom Tillis handed Trump his balls in a glass jar and flopped. He is up for reelection. I hope his vote bites him in the ass. He's from South Carolina, which means it may not. There seem to be a whole lot of really dumb or really ignorant people in South Carolina. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. If they aren't dumb or ignorant, they are bigoted Trumpy jackasses.
 
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