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Discussion Starter #1
Trump and his band of kleps may have one explanation for what they are selling as "tax reform" but the public doesn't seem to be buying it.

Should be a fun fall and winter, waiting for the Republicans to deliver their Christmas present to Trump for signing. (Actually, I don't think the opposition has even begun to organize themselves.)

Two key things to keep in mind:

1. Since the GOP is doing this under "budget reconciliation rules" to avoid including even one Democrat in the deal, any tax cuts MUST be equalized by spending cuts in order to balance. No deficits allowed. SO, who gets the harpoons in this thing? You get ONE guess.

2. Under those same rules, only 51% is needed to pass in the Senate, yes, but it takes only three senators to kill the thing. Likely candidates could be Corker, Flake and McCain. Collins? Murkowski?

Most Americans think tax cuts for the middle class, low-income Americans, and small businesses would help the national economy but expect that the tax plan proposed by President Trump and congressional Republicans would not be beneficial to these groups. Instead, most expect the proposed tax changes to benefit large corporations and wealthy Americans with little advantage to the national economy.

According to the latest AP-NORC poll, most Americans disapprove of how Trump is handling taxes. Yet most also admit to knowing little or nothing about the tax plan proposed by the president and congressional Republicans. Trump and Republican leaders in Congress released an outline of their plan in September. The legislation is still being drafted in Congress.

Two-thirds of Americans say taxes are an extremely or very important issue to them personally. But, while 30 percent say they trust the Democrats to deal with the issue and 24 percent say they trust the Republicans, even more, 35 percent, do not have any confidence in either party to take care of taxes. Eleven percent have faith in both parties to deal with the issue.

About 7 in 10 say wealthy households and large corporations pay too little in taxes, while more than half of Americans think they personally pay too much, along with middle-income households and small businesses.

The nationwide poll was conducted by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research from October 12-16, 2017 using the AmeriSpeak® Omnibus, a monthly multi-client survey using NORC at the University of Chicago’s probability-based panel. Online and telephone interviews using landlines and cell phones were conducted with 1,054 adults. The margin of sampling error is +/- 4.0 percentage points.
 

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It's the usual. GOP yips and yaps about budget deficits under Democrats. The Democratic administration deals with deficits in at least some token manner. GOP rides whining to power and forgets all about deficits. If you look at history and think Republicans care at all about deficits, then you are an idiot and utterly incapable of seeing proven reality. It's just one more reason I can't vote for Republicans these days. You don't ever get what they say they are. What you get is cronies who want to mine the nation for profits for their pals. Some of the crap they plan to do will benefit foreign entities as much or more than US entities. So much for the America First bullshit. It's all just bullshit, just like Trump tweeting about Clinton. He seems to forget that he has an actual job to do, namely being the head of the administration that operates the United States of America.

I hope people who voted for him are happy that he's fucking up the works. They are generally the people who will get screwed hardest.
 

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the joke is in your hand
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once big ticket items like homes and cars sales plummet bringing the economy to a slump and gas tax brings it to $3.50+ again they'll start to realize the mistake. especially when they're putting $200 a week in that big jacked up truck of theirs. better get 3 coal jobs...2 just to pay for your trips to work! but of course they'll blame it on Obama...

who wants to bet in 3 years it will be an official recession again?
 

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We will have a recession sooner or later, just because that's how the business cycle works. What's interesting to me is that Trump's numbers look like a late second term president in a decent economy. If he were any other president, his numbers would be far higher. He's probably a lock for renomination, but not for reelection, since the die-hards who will vote in primaries have the stunning ability to gloss over the fact that what he does hurts them directly and will benefit those who hide their money in tax havens. Among other things. There's a lot more damage that's being done right now, but the kind of person who votes in a GOP primary cannot or will not notice that damage to US prospects and reputation.

Current GOP elected officials aren't stupid and can figure this out. They know that the electorate who show up in the primaries ARE stupid on the GOP side, or at least willfully ignorant, and will drum them out in favor of an even crazier person if given a reason. Those who are immune, Collins, Murkowski, Flake, McCain, Corker, will probably admit that they see through the bullshit. I sure hope they don't feel bound by party loyalty and self-preservation over patriotism. I hope they do the right thing and shoot it down. I'm fairly optimistic that at least a few of them will.

The Roy Moore thing in Alabama is another joker in the deck. We live in interesting times.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
If there should be a rallying cry on the part of the Democratic Party and its membership in Congress, it should be "Look at Kansas!" There is the textbook case of what happens when you slash taxes.

Alas, its Stone Age governor, Sam Brownback, in a brilliant, incredibly courageous move, resigned his job and took one with more security (?) in, you guessed it, the Trump Administration, leaving a steaming heap of bullshit in Topeka to be dealt with.
 

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Here's the beginning of the end. One of the reasons the GOP are in such a hurry to tilt the tax code to benefit their cronies is the smoke screen Trump's slow political and legal demise is giving them. I'm beginning to wonder whether Trump makes through this month without a whole lot of things crashing down around him. With that going on, there's plenty of cover for a virulently one sided tax rewrite. By this time next year, the GOP may be dealing with a reduced or eliminated Congressional majority and a politically demolished Presidency, whether it's President Trump or President Pence.

Then again, Trump might just skate through in characteristic teflon fashion. Coat a pile of shit with teflon and it's still a pile of shit, but I guess the nimrods who also vote for people like Roy Moore don't notice the stench.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
What's just fascinating to me is the exactly 180 degree turn from being "The Party of Deficit Reduction" to "The Party of Who Gives a Shit about Deficits."

EVERY legitimate analysis of the the Donor Relief Act states an enormous deficit in the works if this thing becomes law. The GOP hypocrisy is so unbelievably transparent that you wonder if they're totally blind to what's going on in the hinterlands....unless they think the tax break on the front end will quell the masses.

The push back will be very strong in 2018, I think. I HOPE! (N.B. Pence may be in trouble himself in this Russiagate scandal. They've flipped Flynn and he knows a lot. I think Pence may in in trouble. They've already got him in a publicly stated lie.)

You got to ask yourself the question: Does reality matter anymore? Trump has upended factual statements.
 

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What's just fascinating to me is the exactly 180 degree turn from being "The Party of Deficit Reduction" to "The Party of Who Gives a Shit about Deficits."

EVERY legitimate analysis of the the Donor Relief Act states an enormous deficit in the works if this thing becomes law. The GOP hypocrisy is so unbelievably transparent that you wonder if they're totally blind to what's going on in the hinterlands....unless they think the tax break on the front end will quell the masses.
Ahhh. You're missing what's going on. Large deficits are not an accident and a byproduct of the tax cut. Large deficits are planned and its supposed to happen. Realize that the Republicans are all about shrinking the size of the federal govt. So they run up a massive deficit and then have an excuse to cut the govt to reduce the deficit.

Remember that government is the problem, so any possible means to reduce the size of the problem is OK.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/us/politics/tax-cuts-republicans-entitlements-medicare-social-security.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage&_r=0

As the tax cut legislation passed by the Senate early Saturday hurtles toward final approval, Republicans are preparing to use the swelling deficits made worse by the package as a rationale to pursue their long-held vision: undoing the entitlements of the New Deal and Great Society, leaving government leaner and the safety net skimpier for millions of Americans.
 

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Exactly. The plan is to demolish the New Deal, Great Society, and Civil Rights Act. Back to the good ol' days of 1873, when the serfs starved during a financial "panic" but the rich just gold plated themselves and started building things like Newport, Rhode Island for themselves. It's easier to hire good help when the serfs are starving, y'know.
 

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I'm less convinced this is going to pass. Marco Rubio is demanding changes. Corker is already against it. No word from Collins. Lee of Utah is still officially undecided. McCain and Cochran may or may not be able to vote at all. The process has sealed off any likelihood that a Democrat will vote for it. I thought the Obamacare demolition was going to go through. It fell apart at the last second. It could happen to this tax bill as well.

And, to top it off Paul Ryan sound like he's had enough and will be leaving Washington DC next year. Lame Duck rumors don't confer extra power, and in Ryan's case, it may make him less effective. It means less likelihood of pure fraud being passed as economic policy, which is good. It also means the crazies will run amok and paralyze things even more. The party of NO is living up to its reputation. If all you got is tantrums, you are going to suck at governing.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ahhh. You're missing what's going on. Large deficits are not an accident and a byproduct of the tax cut. etc....

No. I've been seeing this coming a couple of years. These guys are out to kill government, plain and simple. The plutocrats who are running the show in DC have convinced a large segment of the population that government is actually against them. It's pure Republican Kool-Aid and they drink it with every meal in the red states.

Ignorance abounds and the Trumps of this world are trading on it. Legally and illegally.
 

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these redneck dolts that love trump are about to get a lesson in reality. their so called tax breaks only apply to them until 2025 at the latest. but the tax breaks for the wealthy continue on. Rand Paul is back with his talks of cutting social security to pay for the several trillions in debt the tax bill creates. btw, aren't republicans so against the debt? weren't they the ones bellyaching about obama trying to save millions on unemployment and fixing the infrastructure to put americans back to work? yeah I clearly recall them talking about impeaching him over it. standing in front of tv cameras saying they'll block everything he wants.

where's trump getting all this money he is going to use on his rebuilding of the infrastructure and the increases of military spending? especially when he finally gets his N.Korean war started...

and now they secretly threw in a provision from sen. Corker to give kickbacks to real estate investors. such as himself and donald trump. putting them in the 22% tax bracket. until this went in corker was against the tax bill, now he's all for it. imagine that....
 

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It's fucking disgusting. That's all there is to it. These guys (TRUMP, Corker, Murkowski, (even) Collins) are so f'ing cynical they're helping themselves to the golden shower, thinking no one is watching. Even McCain is staying home and not voting rather than vote against this monstrosity. It's outright theft.

The Republicans are all on board for this bill, which a paltry 29% of the country thinks is good for the nation. How f'ing cynical can you get? Boy, is there going to be blowback in '18!

I gotta say, the nations two great newspapers, the WaPo and the NYT are keeping the light shining on those assholes.
 

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It's the great Benefit the Trump Family Act of 2017. That's pretty well documented already, and it's going to be hard for the GOP to deny. They will deny it, and so will Faux News. But fuckem. Unless something changes, they will be punished at the polls next year. If the economy falters at all between now and then, it could be an absolute bloodbath. I hope the economy doesn't falter ever, but chances are that it will, and when it does, the party in control gets blamed. Until 2020 at the soonest, that will be the GOP. As long as a Republican occupies the White House, it's their baby. Just as Obama absorbed the flack when the economy wasn't as great as we all wanted, Trump gets to deal with it, rightly or wrongly. He will whine about how it's Obama's fault. There will also be 24% of the population, give or take, who still think he's wonderful. Those are the same people who think Jesus rode a dinosaur, that the earth is flat, and the moon landings were faked.
 

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Well, it's done, according this morning's paper. Welcome to plutocrat heaven, all. We're in a whole new hall of mirrors. Frankly, the glaring hole in how this bill became law is that it was passed through the reconciliation process, rather than way way bills are supposed to be drawn up, worked over in a bipartisan way in committee, voted on in each house, conferred, and something approaching bipartisan bill emerges. (You know, the way we were taught in high school Civics class.) This monstrosity passed without a single Democratic vote and, like what happened to Obamacare, the minority party, when it becomes the majority party, will have their say.

The Republican Party as it was, is no more. It is the party of the hyper wealthy, the corporations, the bankers and Wall St. money managers, real estate tycoons, the gas and oil corporations, the liars, the cheats, the hypocrites like "Bob" Corker who piously declared that he wouldn't vote for a bill which added "a dime" to the deficit but in the end voted for a bill altered to give him an enormous personal tax windfall and adds god-knows-how-much to the budget deficit and national debt.

In the end, this once great political party chose to get behind a sociopathic, self-hating, misogynistic racist named Donald Trump and take the money of a dozen or so insanely wealthy families and corporations so that they can get even more insanely wealthy, and do it at the expense of people who actually work. The Republican party of Charles Percy, of Jacob Javits, of Henry Lodge, of Dwight Eisenhower, of Wayne Morse, even of Mitch Romney—a party which was fiscally conservative but socially progressive—is simply a vestige of the past. It's been hijacked by hypocritical preachers and self-dealers. The party of conservative government has become the party of no government. So ends Chapter 1 of the Trump years. (The Louis Powell Memo looms large. Is it the final vindication? I doubt it.)

Chapter 2 now begins: The attack on entitlements. Up for grabs is Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, higher education, Social Security, the last being something the plutocrats have been trying to repeal since 1935. Paul Ryan, the greatest of the great congressional hypocrites and Mitch McConnell, the majority leader who views legislating as warfare will now begin their quest to even more blatantly screw over the poor and the middle class before they lose the Congress.

Let us pray...
 

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David Brooks sounded resigned in a column I read this morning. He is a patrician and that shows through more often than not. But, he's also got the capacity to be thoughtful at times. The column was thoughtful this morning. He say that the GOP is no longer the GOP. It's something else. He also said that the latest round of tax monkey business was brutal, small minded, and utterly uncreative. Not in exactly those words. He also said that it will hit the biggest constituency of the GOP hardest, namely less educated working people. Many of them white. That will alienate them even more, causing them to vote Republican even more reliably, because the GOP has cast itself as the party of alienated populism. He may be right. I hope not, but then, PT Barnum is right about suckers. And then there's this:

No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.
-H.L. Mencken
 

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Right now, Republican politicians have shown astonishingly little interest in these and other ideas, except Senators Marco Rubio, Mike Lee and Tim Scott, Representative Kevin Yoder and a few others. And I confess, I don’t expect the G.O.P. to be hurt by the decision to stiff its own voters. The historical pattern is clear: The less Republicans do for workers, the more alienated the workers become and the more they vote Republican. - David Brooks
He's right in one respect: There is a core constituency of middle class and poor white people who are so welded to the myth of Republicanism that they simply cannot vote against it. It's like that lady in Alabama who was quoted as saying no matter how bad Roy Moore is she would never vote Democratic. Their ability to take a screwing—and like it—is infinite. They simply cannot break their connection.

But the important point is that it is a Republican core and not a majority of the electorate. Some Republican will come over next year. Not many, but some. The real battle will be for the independents and registered Democrats. The task is to get them to the polls in a midterm election.

The truth is that any legislation passed without the consent of the opposing party will not stand for very long. We've seen that with the ACA, (Even though many of the provisions it were originally Republican ideas....like the mandate (which this bill has now killed)! Well, I guess what's left of the ACA will now be Trumpcare.
 

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GOP Leaders Celebrate Decisive Win Over Americans



WASHINGTON—In the wake of the $1.5 trillion tax bill’s historic passage in both the House and the Senate, GOP leaders reportedly celebrated Wednesday their decisive win over everyday American citizens. “This is a monumental victory not only for us, but for everyone struggling under the reign of the average American,” said Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, adding that party leaders made a promise to “take a stand against ordinary U.S. citizens,” before cracking open a bottle of champagne and proudly declaring that “today, we delivered.” “Of course, the fight against the people of this country is not yet over. We won this battle, but the war is still to come. However, if we carry on with the same vigor demonstrated today in our widely opposed tax overhaul, I know that we will prevail over Americans time and time again.” GOP leaders also expressed confidence that they would achieve another dominant victory over the American people as they push to close the deficit by cutting food stamp programs, Social Security, and Medicare.
 

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