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Discussion Starter #1
Bet you didn't know the Sex Pistols- who only ever made a single complete album- also had a feature length movie.
Actually there was supposed to be two, but the band imploded before Who Killed Bambi could be completed.

The Great Rock and Roll Swindle is almost a documentary. It features Malcolm MacLaren explaining that the Sex Pistols were really just a made up band to bilk money from record companies.
It's done as a sort of detective spoof with Paul Cook and Steve Jones (the only two members that had parts in the movie itself) trying to track down Malcolm for money he owed them.
Sid was already dead and Johnny had nothing to do with the movie. Although both appear in scenes that were shot for other videos.

Highlight- two actual videos that Sid made after the Pistols break up. If you've seen the movie Sid and Nancy, you've seen a remake of "My Way". Now see the real thing, with the real Sid and Nancy.

Some of the film is animations that were done to show the wild excess of Pistols partying. The end credits are animated to the tune of "Friggin' in the Riggin'." A great tune.

So it's semi-historical, but with that MacLaren spoof on his own creation. It does reveal the very true bit of bilking a couple record companies and never actually providing an album. It also has great real footage of the infamous Queen's Jubilee boat concert that got the band arrested. Also real footage of when the Pistols came to podunk town USA and nearly caused the world to implode. Sid attacking audience members (a bunch of rodeo hicks no less) with his chest bleeding from carving NANCY or I NEED A FIX into it.

If you know nothing of the band and it's history, the film will make very little sense to you. But it's still pretty fun. Being a Pistols fan, you've probably already seen it. If not- bollocks to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
After the response for SLC punk, am I really the only person with the Great Rock and Roll Swindle???????
 

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I"ve never heard of it Solly, I'm gonna look for it now.
 

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As an old school punk fan, I'm familiar with the Sex Pistols' history and they're music. I've never seen this movie, nor do I particularly care to. Apart from one or two good tunes, the Sex Pistols were basically an early punk version of today's boy bands: a few marginally talented (at best) performers thrown together to take part in a cynical and pathetically transparent money grab.

Sid & Nancy was a good flick, though.
 

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Sex Pistols were way overrated...still are. like the Clash....let's talk Misfits...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Overrated?! That was the entire point. They were blown up into so much more than 4 (5 if you count Glenn) scruffy kids from London hanging out in a sex fetish shop.

This is the beauty of the Pistols. THey absolutely do not deserve the legions of fans they have- but at the same time accomplished more with doing nothing that demands a certain respect.

How punk is that?! Success from abject failure. Ugly dudes with little talent made the Queen of a country notice them. This is the heart and soul of punk.
How much more in your face could a band be than to celebrate the Queen's Jubilee with a free concert that got the band arrested for being anti-brit, when they represented the core of poor, unemployed britain?

The whole point of the Pistols, and punk itself seems lost on people.
Could they play? Barely. Were they pretty? In no way shape or form. Did they have big hits? Not a one. And yet they are still considered (along with the Ramones) as the fathers of punk.
They took punk past the music. It was the entire point of the Pistols to thumb a collective nose at everyone around them- and in that they succeeded in spades.
While the Ramones were just guys from Forest Hills jamming simple tunes, the Pistols took it that one step farther and made wreaking havoc part of the punk paradigm.

Sheena isn't a punk rocker- she's the chick in the mall with a few piercings and a debbie gibson record hidden under her bed.
Johnny Rotten spent a wad on a hand written letter from Sid to Nancy on Ebay- only to incinerate it on TV. THAT's fucking punk.
Smash the icons. Anger your parents. Scare the local church group. Make a queen take notice of you.
Right there is the central nerve of the whole scene.
 

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Emo gives me diarrhea
 

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Sorry, I only give a damn about good music.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
to each his own. Punk isn't for everyone. I for one loathe rap and hip hop with a burning passion. Actually, that's not even music by my standard (like having actual instruments instead of scratching up your mom's vinyl albums or faggoty beat boxes) but I hate it nonetheless.
Good thing there's lots of genres to choose from, huh?
 

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I mean honestly, if a band doesn't have something important to say through the music itself, why bother? Compare Megadeth's Countdown To Extinction with any 1 album released by a punk band in the last four decades; which do you more thoroughly appreciate? The punk band with it's simple angst and misguided rebellion?..or the thrash band with it's honesty and aggressive introspection? Kind of a strange analogy, I agree, but I don't know how to express this concept any better.
 

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King Cobra said:
I mean honestly, if a band doesn't have something important to say through the music itself, why bother? Compare Megadeth's Countdown To Extinction with any 1 album released by a punk band in the last four decades; which do you more thoroughly appreciate?
Spoken like someone who hasn't heard too many punk bands. The Sex Pistols never really had anything important to say, and that's why serious punk fans don't really regard them as a good punk band... or even a good band period. Conversely, listen to any album by the Dead Kennedys, The Dicks, Government Issue, M.D.C., Minor Threat, etc, etc, etc, before you try to tell anyone that punk bands have nothing to say.

Kind of a strange analogy, I agree, but I don't know how to express this concept any better.
It's not a strange analogy, just a poor one. Let me use my own poor example to illustrate why I think your point isn't valid: "Metal bands have nothing intelligent to say, because I listened to a Poison album once, and all they sang about was chasing tail." Hope that explains it a little better
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Metal is simply a different type of expression. Good metal is an excersize in technical ability and pure aggression. It has 'balls'. That raging disortion fuzzing out the lead is it's signature.
Punk is the exact opposite. It is SuPPOSED to be sloppy and simplistic. Listen to alot of punk and you'll hear an almost 50's sounding theme. Glenn Danzig in his Misfits/Samhain days sounded very 50's. As did songs like Do You Wanna Dance from The Ramones. The entire point is to reject the huge excess of the current trend. In the 70's it was crap like the Bay City Rollers (disco and big band stuff like Boston), and in the 90's it was grunge. That's why Nirvana was able to make a career around 3 chords. Grunge was a form of punk- just a mass produced and commercialized one.

And lots of punk bands do topical stuff. Bonzo Goes To Bitburg (Ramones), God Save The Queen (Sex Pistols). I even consider Frank Zappa a punk in his own right. Punk has always been associated with social commentary.

But also remember that metal is also pretty heavy on songs about war- even though not a single one of the band members has ever been anything but a long haired stoner sitting in his room learning guitar to pull chicks. Mandatory Suicide (Slayer), Disposable Heroes (Metallica), Peace Sells (Megadeth).
What does Dave Mustaine know about war?

So it's really a matter of perspective. And also don't forget that during the recording of Countdown, Mustaine was so whacked out of his skull on smack, that his social commentary was delivered by a junkie. I love Dave, man. He's always been 100% pro-America. But you have to look at the source sometimes.
The Pistols came from London in a time when the garbagemen were on strike for months. People went to the local park to dump their crap. Imagine the city park being a giant landfill a block from your house, and no job to give you an excuse to even leave.
But the queen hosted a giant party at great expense glorifying the empire.

That's awfully deep social commentary- even if delivered by a band of kids practicing in a sex shop.
 

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TheSollyLama said:
Punk is the exact opposite. It is SuPPOSED to be sloppy and simplistic. Listen to alot of punk and you'll hear an almost 50's sounding theme. Glenn Danzig in his Misfits/Samhain days sounded very 50's. As did songs like Do You Wanna Dance from The Ramones.
Most of the 1st gen. punk bands started out that way, true. But dig a little deeper and it's not hard to find some amazingly skilled musicianship. I think this applies to just about any genre of popular music. It starts out fairly simple, but then gets better as it evolves... and besides, all the halfway decent 3 chord combinations had been used already :lol
But also remember that metal is also pretty heavy on songs about war- even though not a single one of the band members has ever been anything but a long haired stoner sitting in his room learning guitar to pull chicks. Mandatory Suicide (Slayer), Disposable Heroes (Metallica), Peace Sells (Megadeth).
What does Dave Mustaine know about war?
Perhaps you took my crack about Poison the wrong way. I made a statement about heavy metal that was similar to the one King Cobra made about punk in an attempt to illustrate the falacy of his argument. I do realize that many (perhaps most?) metal bands have a social conscience, and tha they're not all a bunch of ridiculous cock-rock fops like Poison, Ratt, et al.
 

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Nostradumbass said:
It's not a strange analogy, just a poor one. Let me use my own poor example to illustrate why I think your point isn't valid: "Metal bands have nothing intelligent to say, because I listened to a Poison album once, and all they sang about was chasing tail." Hope that explains it a little better
Yeah, it was quite a generalization in retrospect. I guess I'm just a sucker for musicianship. I hope someone will call me and let me know when the punk community comes out with something to rival Holy Wars and Victim of Changes. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
They won't. That's kind of the point. Technical ability is the hallmark of that one particular genre of music- metal.
That is not applied to all forms of music. For instance- country focuses far more on singing than musicianship, whereas only a couple metal bands have singers that do much more than holler at the mike.
So that's sort of the same thing an opera snob would say about metal- 'let me know when metal comes out with someone that can rival Pavrotti'
It's not the reason Dave Mustaine plays music is to be a successful singer. He's a guitarist.

Each genre has it's focal point, it's center of gravity. Punk's is actually the rejection of that (in principal). It's the rejection of super-technical ability, super vocal talent, super appearance or hype. It's a back to the basics approach to music- but goes beyond embracing the core of music to angrily rejecting all the bells and whistles.

But there are always standouts. Check out the bass solo in Rancid's song Maxwell Murder. That's mind blowing speed, for anyone on a four stringer.
I think the Offspring are awesome- they combine good tunes with really humorous lyrics. One problem in metal is that it has always taken itself WAY WAY WAY too seriously.
When one of the signature 'moves' of someone huge, like Eddie Van Halen is actually SMILING onstage- sarge, the whole hard rock genre needs to loosen the hell up.

Also not used much in metal is a wide variety of musical styles. Agent Orange (on Bloodstains) and later the Offspring used eastern indian style riffs to add dimension. Much the way Megadeth threw in that little middle eastern twang in Holy Wars.

best of all- punk is the ultimate DIY music. It's the music that is most accessible for people to actually play for themselves- even if only as a starting point. And anything that gets people to make their own music (however bad) is still a good thing.
 

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Didnt Rob Halford fr. Judas Priest start out in opera? There is alot of heavy metal bands that focus on more than war and destruction. Violence in some way shape or form yes. Queensryche is avery intelligent band. Operation mindcrime was a story set to music. Iron maiden is another band that is a very intelligent band with music, lyrics and tempo. As for the hair bands, cant we just forget about them and leave them in the 80's?
-onebxr
 

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onebxr said:
Didnt Rob Halford fr. Judas Priest start out in opera? There is alot of heavy metal bands that focus on more than war and destruction. Violence in some way shape or form yes. Queensryche is avery intelligent band. Operation mindcrime was a story set to music. Iron maiden is another band that is a very intelligent band with music, lyrics and tempo. As for the hair bands, cant we just forget about them and leave them in the 80's?
-onebxr
Yeah, most people just don't know.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
and he used to look like a hippy before going the biker leather direction...........

Nonetheless, it's still apples and oranges to compare metal and punk. They are almost mutually exclusive. Ask Lars Frederickson.

I love both genres. But I love each for totally different reasons.
 

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