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rman, the situation you described would have fully justified the use of deadly force. Now as far as the weapon being taken away from you.....what I would have done was attempted to retreat and pull my weapon. At that point, it would have been up to the perp as to whether he lived or died.

One step towards me would have resulted in a triple tap and one less piece of shit criminal in society.:beer
I think that is a serious miscalculation of the situation and you most likely would have been convicted of murder. See, Rman stated the thugs had requested his wallet. That constitutes robbery, not imminent danger to his life. Neither did Rman mention that any of the robbers had any weapons and although a beating sucks, it usually does not kill you. Retreating, pulling the weapon and making the thugs leave would have been fine. But if you had actually killed a person on that account, you would have been the one in jail, not the robber. Thats how it is and I dont see that anyone needs to counter a bad act with one thats even worse.
 

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I think that is a serious miscalculation of the situation and you most likely would have been convicted of murder. See, Rman stated the thugs had requested his wallet. That constitutes robbery, not imminent danger to his life. Neither did Rman mention that any of the robbers had any weapons and although a beating sucks, it usually does not kill you. Retreating, pulling the weapon and making the thugs leave would have been fine. But if you had actually killed a person on that account, you would have been the one in jail, not the robber. Thats how it is and I dont see that anyone needs to counter a bad act with one thats even worse.
And that is EXACTLY why I'm glad that I don't carry a weapon. In the heat of the moment, I may or may not have been able to make that distinction. Granted, there is also the very real possibility that you could be beaten to death. It's not likely, but I'm sure it's probably happened before and can / will happen again.
 

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I think that is a serious miscalculation of the situation and you most likely would have been convicted of murder. See, Rman stated the thugs had requested his wallet. That constitutes robbery, not imminent danger to his life. Neither did Rman mention that any of the robbers had any weapons and although a beating sucks, it usually does not kill you. Retreating, pulling the weapon and making the thugs leave would have been fine. But if you had actually killed a person on that account, you would have been the one in jail, not the robber. Thats how it is and I dont see that anyone needs to counter a bad act with one thats even worse.
I will address this later tonight when I have more time. Pulling the tr***** in this situation would have been fully supported by our "Castle Doctrine" statutes. There isn't a PA in this state that would have been able to charge you had you eliminated the threat.

I will be happy to explain in depth later tonight how wrong your assessment is Volken.
 

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I will address this later tonight when I have more time. Pulling the tr***** in this situation would have been fully supported by our "Castle Doctrine" statutes. There isn't a PA in this state that would have been able to charge you had you eliminated the threat.

I will be happy to explain in depth later tonight how wrong your assessment is Volken.
No need for you to display how wrong I am - just a need for you to understand I am right. Even on Wikipedia, which is not a very great source for reliable information, it clearly states how this situation would most certainly not have warranted deadly force. But Im not looking for a fight, just hate to be called wrong when Im right.
Here ya go: Deadly force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
At no point in time did Rman state his life was in danger, hence deadly force would have been inappropriate. A broken nose and some bruises is not serious bodily harm. Its called a beating or assault. The Castle Doctrine's do not refer to this case as those only pertain to invasion of your home with the verifiable outcome being serious bodily harm or death. See for yourself: Castle Doctrine in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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This is where it can seem a little grey. Who's to say at some point they hit u in the face, and knock you unconcious, and while u are out proceed to beat you to death? I have heard stories where the above happened! You don't have to be confronted with a weapon, for your life to be in danger! Now I do see Volkens point also! But when Rman tried to flee, and they persued him, and continued to beat on him, he would have been within his rights to defend his life! If I would have been in his situation, I would have feared being knocked out, and then killed! It turned out well for him, and he was lucky! Most criminals would rather dispose of a witness, then go to jail for attempted robbery/assult, especially if they have multiple strikes on them! Just my 2 cents...
 

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This is where it can seem a little grey. Who's to say at some point they hit u in the face, and knock you unconcious, and while u are out proceed to beat you to death? I have heard stories where the above happened! You don't have to be confronted with a weapon, for your life to be in danger! Now I do see Volkens point also! But when Rman tried to flee, and they persued him, and continued to beat on him, he would have been within his rights to defend his life! If I would have been in his situation, I would have feared being knocked out, and then killed! It turned out well for him, and he was lucky! Most criminals would rather dispose of a witness, then go to jail for attempted robbery/assult, especially if they have multiple strikes on them! Just my 2 cents...
Yes, there are incidents where this happens. Im not saying Im completely right, but I'd hate to take a chance considering the severe repercussions killing someone may have. Any case like this is different and its up to the individual to decide, how life threatening each situation is. However, that judgement will be scrutinized from a legal point of view if you do decide to use deadly force. And why take that chance for a silly wallet and some cash? I'd rather live to tell the story than go to court or jail and risk both a beating from a judge and an ass-poking from a 300 pound cell mate with a 15 inch stick of hard love.
 

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No need for you to display how wrong I am - just a need for you to understand I am right. Even on Wikipedia, which is not a very great source for reliable information, it clearly states how this situation would most certainly not have warranted deadly force. But Im not looking for a fight, just hate to be called wrong when Im right.
Here ya go: Deadly force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
At no point in time did Rman state his life was in danger, hence deadly force would have been inappropriate. A broken nose and some bruises is not serious bodily harm. Its called a beating or assault. The Castle Doctrine's do not refer to this case as those only pertain to invasion of your home with the verifiable outcome being serious bodily harm or death. See for yourself: Castle Doctrine in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well Volken, you are wrong. Missouri statute 563-031 is very clear on this subject. Please see the following:

Section 563-031 Use of force in defense of persons.

"A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person."

In other words, it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to determine that his or her life is in imminent danger. Not the courts, not the perp, not a PA.


I'll would like to draw special attention to Section 2 (1) (2):

2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony; or

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.

Notice the "or"....

No PA within the State of Missouri would prosecute this case.

If you don't believe that "at least a good dozen kicks to the face, ribs, and back" could kill someone, I don't know what to tell you. Internal injuries to include bleeding to death would be highly probable. Whether they intended to kill him or not is irrelevant. The injuries could have very likely ended in death.

The Wiki sources you cite are not state specific so therefore are unreliable as a source in this case.
 

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Well Volken, you are wrong. Missouri statute 563-031 is very clear on this subject. Please see the following:

Section 563-031 Use of force in defense of persons.

"A person may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person."

In other words, it is up to the INDIVIDUAL to determine that his or her life is in imminent danger. Not the courts, not the perp, not a PA.


I'll would like to draw special attention to Section 2 (1) (2):

2. A person may not use deadly force upon another person under the circumstances specified in subsection 1 of this section unless:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such deadly force is necessary to protect himself or herself or another against death, serious physical injury, or any forcible felony; or

(2) Such force is used against a person who unlawfully enters, remains after unlawfully entering, or attempts to unlawfully enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle lawfully occupied by such person.

Notice the "or"....

No PA within the State of Missouri would prosecute this case.

If you don't believe that "at least a good dozen kicks to the face, ribs, and back" could kill someone, I don't know what to tell you. Internal injuries to include bleeding to death would be highly probable. Whether they intended to kill him or not is irrelevant. The injuries could have very likely ended in d eath.

The Wiki sources you cite are not state specific so therefore are unreliable as a source in this case.
I agree! The only hiccup I could see, is a PA trying to make a name for him/herself, and using the whole "Reasonable person/reasonable beliefs" But if its between court, and loosing my life, I'll go to court ANY day!
 

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I agree! The only hiccup I could see, is a PA trying to make a name for him/herself, and using the whole "Reasonable person/reasonal beliefs" But if its between court, and loosing my life, I'll go to court ANY day!
99, a PA wouldn't touch that case with a ten foot pole. The law is very clear and allows quite a bit of latitude. Very, very few PA's (liberal or not) are willing to take on cases that they have a high probability of losing.

Besides, there is a Second Amendment lawyer in Kansas City (Kevin Jameson) that would take this case pro bono and tear apart any PA stupid enough to take this on.

I should have been a lawyer.....
 

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I understand the point you are trying to convey, Drur, but seriously, are you willing to risk any of those outcomes for a wallet?
Like I stated before, it is up to the individual to decide the level of danger in a given situation. Thats a subjective standard, but I can tell you, it WILL be scrutinized when the case gets reviewed. Are you honestly trying to tell me, that if I claim to have shot a guy in self defense, the cops are just gonne go 'oh, ok, case closed'? What about backing the story up? There were no witnesses as far as I recall. And one thing is a criminal case, another is a civil lawsuit. Man, come on, get real dude.
I used to be quite active in the martial arts and from competing in this sport I can tell you that your body can withstand quite a bit of punishment before any serious injury is sustained. The aftermath and bruising will tell the tale, but in a heated moment, you honestly have no clue how severe the damage is until your body comes out of the adrenaline rush and shock. I have fought people with a broken hand in competitions and did not even know the bones had broken. I never thought I had sustained any serious injury, and honestly, if you consider a broken nose and a few kicks/punches serious injury, you my friend is a chickenshit. Rman never stood a chance had he pulled that gun. Had he shot one of them, the other would have continued to attack. And if you ever pull a gun on someone, you better use it before your opponent takes the weapon and returns the favor. Rman did the right thing. He stayed down when he had already lost the battle. No need for him to take a stupid risk and end up dead. But hey, its a free country and like you said yourself, there will be one less piece of shit out there.
 

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man you go out of town for a day and all hell brakes loose. thanks krid for all the info and it was nice to meet your wife. she seems like a very nice lady and your very lucky to have her. oh and she is very easy on the eyes to man. you must be a great sales man to have ended up with her so my hats off to you sir.
 

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Volken, we'll just have to agree to disagree but the law is on my side and I like it that way!

:cheers
 

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man you go out of town for a day and all hell brakes loose. thanks krid for all the info and it was nice to meet your wife. she seems like a very nice lady and your very lucky to have her. oh and she is very easy on the eyes to man. you must be a great sales man to have ended up with her so my hats off to you sir.
You are quite welcome. Hope the trip home from Festus today was uneventful.
 

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Wow, I really really didn't mean to spark a big debate about it lol. I was just curious if it was commonplace for people to carry a weapon while riding.

Anyway, to clear up a few things:

A) My nose was not broken, even though I sure thought it was at the time. I ended up with some bruised ribs and a couple facial lacerations. Chicks dig scars, no biggie.

B) There were witnesses, at least a few that saw the entire event transpire. It happened right in front (at the edge of the building) of a 7-11, people were there getting gas.

C) I did not retreat, I'm not that smart. Everytime I tried to get up, I was getting up swinging. I don't think it did much good though, except to piss them off more.

D) All this for a wallet? Fuck yeah, it's MY wallet. I work hard for what I have and I'll be damned if I let someone push me around and take it. It might not be the smartest choice because things can be replaced, but if you just roll-over and take it, who's to say it stops with a wallet?

E) Looking back on it, I'm glad I didn't have a gun, because I most likely would have tried to use it at the time and whether justified or not. Also, just on a personal level, I don't think I could ever shoot to kill. That's just not my thing. I'd rather aim for a kneecap and hope for something that lasts, so that the next time they thought about pulling that bullshit on someone else, maybe they'd think twice.

Granted, even a gunshot that isn't intended to be lethal, can be. I think that's why I'd rather stick with a taser or something of that nature. Maybe a good 'ol cattle prod in a holster, haha.
 

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my weekend

Terry and Dirk do Texas in 47 hours
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We left Surdyke Motorsports (where I work) right about 6pm Saturday evening and rode to Springfield for the night, right around 200 miles. It was an interesting ride, to be sure! First off, I had never ridden with Terry, my friend and coworker who rides a 2005 Victory Kingpin. Terry likes to go FAST, which is ok with me. We were smooth sailing (read: flying low) until Steeleville, MO where police had a sobriety checkpoint stopping traffic both directions. That traffic held us up for 15 min or so.
We gassed up and ate at the first Rolla exit on I-44 getting about 45 mpg, which is pretty good considering our speed. As the sun fell from the sky, so fell the temperature. Back on I-44 I lasted one exit before making a beeline for Walmart and a warm shirt. I had NOT expected to be cold on a mid July ride to the south! So, a clearance rack thermal long underwear top solved my problems. The 19 year old cashier tried to be all flirty flirt with me too.

"So. Do you actually ride a motorcycle, or do you just wear that coat to look cool?"
"I actually have a motorcycle"
"What kind? Cruiser or 'crotch rocket'?"
"um..... 'crotch rocket'"
"oooo my boyfr.... um... EX-boyfriend had a 250 'crotch rocket' and it was fun. Is yours fast?"
"yes. very fast."
"he let me drive his once"
"well. that sounds like a mistake."

So, I donned my new shirt, headed out to my "very fast 'crotch rocket,'" aimed at Springfield, and rode my 'crotch rocket' very fast.
Friends of mine, Katie and Buddy, let us crash on the couches and so we spent about 8 hours with them.

Sunday morning Terry and I were up and on the bikes shortly after 6am and after a hearty breakfast at Ziggy's, we hit I-44 again. Morning temps were in the high 50's. Chilly! To avoid the Will Rogers Turnpike tolls, we took exit 1 at the MO/KS/OK border and went up into Baxter Springs, KS. Quaint little town, but we weren't stopping. US-69 south was accessed here. Our next stop was in Big Cabin, OK at a truck stop where we fuelled, bathroomed, and I grabbed a Red Bull. We aimed our bikes south with Texas in mind. Our final fuel stop before Texas was in a little place called Stringtown, OK. We spent enough time there to remove the warm clothes, grab a cold drink and fuel up. Terry, who knows no stranger, flirted with the cashier some. Checking GPS, we had 118 miles until Greenville, TX and 2 hours til the FZ6 pony express rendezvous time. Perfect.

In Texas, people sure are nice. If you wanna go f-f-f-fast, they will pull to the shoulder of the road to allow you by. If only the other 49 were so considerate. One lady, in a Honda Accord, used a narrow, bumpy, gravely shoulder for this and nearly took Terry's leg off with the rock she threw. Still, a nice gesture.

We rolled into Greenville at ten to 3, I listened to a voicemail from Fred Brown (rider1a) from fz6-forum.com, checked the GPS, and found the checkpoint by 3:20 or so. Poor Fred was in his Nissan due to breaking a footpeg clean off on his way out of the garage that morning. After 20-30 minutes of chit-chat, pictures, and talk about CO-mode, Terry and I were getting antsy to make Texarkana. Only 130 miles left on day 2 and we were ready to relax.

We made Texarkana at around 5:30, and had our hotel room by 6pm. It seemed unreal that 24 hours earlier, we were in Festus just leavin. We were 785 miles deep and all of those were with 24 hours. Not an iron butt, but we hadn't even planned on making Texarkana so early.

We unpacked and headed to "On The Border" for some Tex-Mex. Heather, our waitress, made things quite interesting to say the least. She was definately working poor old Terry for a tip.... it worked. Heather had a rhinestone on her upper lip. I, making conversation, asked how bad did that hurt. Imagine our surprise when her reply was "my lip hurt way worse than my other two piercings." So she proceeded to tell us how her left nipple was about a 4 on the pain chart, her right was a 6, and her lip was a 10. She also told us that she wished she could show us, but she couldn't do that at work.
The FUNNIEST part of the whole trip was as she walked away following this conversation, Terry looks at me, mouth open, and says "what the heck just happened?!" LOL So, Terry invites Heather back to the hotel to go swimming and she politely declines. We, do hit the pool before bed, however. We have another long day ahead.

Monday morning, Terry wakes me up with revelry at 5:50am (thanks) and after a hot breakfast and fueling we are on the road by 7.
Interstate 30 in Arkansas is shaded. It was nearly 80 in Texarkana at 7am when we left, but just outside of Little Rock we had to stop to add gear. It had dropped about 10 degrees and the shade made it feel even colder. I also saw lightning in the distance so I wanted to check my Sprint Touch Pro, or as Terry called it my "magic box," and radar confirmed a small batch of storms ahead. I put rain covers on my saddlebags, my thermal shirt on, and off we went.

We got wet in Little Rock. It rained very hard for about 15 minutes and then stopped. By our next fuel stop after hitting US-67N, I was almost dry. At this fuel stop, it was 185 miles to Poplar Bluff, MO and Terry decided he wanted to not get gas until then. So off we went at a slower than normal pace. We did stop one time before Poplar Bluff, but only to rehydrate and sugar up.

At 1:45pm we rolled in to a BP in Poplar Bluff. Riding very easy, Terry achieved 45mpg on the Victory, and I got 52mpg, my best ever. We spent over an hour in Poplar Bluff just relaxing, talking to curious bystanders and having some gas station goodies. We were 122 miles from home, so we were good on fuel and the end was in sight.

US-67 led us home and 1280 miles from where we began, we also ended our journey. We arrived at Terry's house 47 hours from when we left. Even while spending 13 hours in Texarkana and 8 in Springfield, MO, we averaged 27.25mph. If you take out our night stops, we averaged 49.5mph which is right on our goal of 50mph. This speed does not factor in fuel stops, food stops etc and is usually a good figure to use while calculating travel time.

After leaving Terry's house, I went and played softball. My team won both games in the double header.

Last night, my bed sure felt soft. I slept like a BABY.
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Dirk, great story. Glad you had a good time!

PS My wife has a "magic box" also.
 

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I'm with Verizon, and have a Touch Pro also.....How do you like it Krid? Mine was slow outa the box, but I have cooked a custom rom on it, and it flies now. If you are interested in that kinda stuff....... Home (sskusers.net) is a great resource to check out! Sounds like a great ride!
 

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I'm with Verizon, and have a Touch Pro also.....How do you like it Krid? Mine was slow outa the box, but I have cooked a custom rom on it, and it flies now. If you are interested in that kinda stuff....... Home (sskusers.net) is a great resource to check out! Sounds like a great ride!
I had a Blackberry Storm for a while, which worked great as long as I was somewhere that Verizon has coverage. Unfortunately Bernie isn't one of those places, at least not at my house.

I just switched back to my old Razr, at least it gets 1 bar inside the house haha.
Nation's largest coverage area my arse. Works great when I'm not at home though. I just have to spend the first 10-15 minutes of every trip catching up on email & voicemails.
 
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