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some help please

3K views 19 replies 8 participants last post by  xjrx 
#1 ·
aright im completely new to this..but all my life have wanted a sportbike. im thinkin bout gettin one come summertime and just wondered if u guys could give me some advice. first off what bikes would u guys reccomend for a first time rider? i want somethin that id be able to handle but somethin that i wouldnt be tired of after a few months..i plan on keepin it for a while...would somethin like a gsxr 600 or a cbr 600 or whatevr it is be too big for a newbie? also id be lookin to get somethin used. where are good places to start a search? thanx
 
#2 ·
YES a 600 anything is a bad idea if your learning...

Kawasaki has a very nice and able 500, think its the ninja 500r ? not sure it was called the EX 500 when i got one in 88. this is a great bike, and it could easily last you a few years, when your ready to move up to a 600...

so, DO NOT go out and get a 600 sport bike,

DO go out and get in a MSF course

and read all the replies to this type of question in the new rider forum, others can explain it lots better then I....

and keep this in mind, nobody is out to ruin your fun... they/we just want you to learn to really have fun... you will see 99.9% of the people here are really good people and will hellp you out, so listen to em...theres lots of experiance here

feel free to PM me with any questions, i will do what i can to help ya
 
#3 · (Edited)
thanx alot for the quick reply...i appreciate the advice and did read that most members feel this way also...however i just would like to hear from an experienced rider or anyone who actually did begin on a 600...how was htat? tell me if u regreted it or not...also the training course that i c u guys talkin about how much does that usually run?
 
#4 ·
Take that MSF course then turn around and buy one of those two-fidies that you ride in that class. That will be your long term training bike, just try not to get hit from behind.

Seriously I started out on a 600 SS but it was 13 years old (1987 Hurricane 600) and it was much much slower than the new ones. I rode it around for about a year then upgraded to a new TLR. I never felt comfortable on the first bike it was way to small for me, in size not power. My wife said I looked silly on it. I would have never bought a new bike as my first, even though I never dropped mine. The new 600's are two fast, to light and to nimble, they almost feel like toys which they aren't.

Most importantly take the MSF, you will be amazed of how much you will learn about the bike and the road. Second always respect the bike and every moving object on the street.
 
#5 ·
well i started on a 500 so i cant help ya with the new riders that did start on 600s... but

www.msf-usa.org this is the site you need for the price info it varies depending on where you live, im in Kentucky and its like $80.. maybe someone in your area will post the price they paid. If not there is a local address for all the states at the msf site.


best of luck
 
#6 ·
the following was posted in the new rider forum by Racer X... you should read this and really think about what you want to achieve in sportbike riding..


**********************************************************
Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

Introduction

Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

False Logic

On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

Vanity Arguments

The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

I want something that's modern and stylish.

I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

You Be The Judge

I'm a big rider so I need a b***** bike to get me around.

I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

The idea that b***** riders need b***** bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but b***** drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers.
__________________
MSF Rider Coach
wanna learn to ride? www.msf-usa.org

'00 VFR
'01 SV650

SBN member since 6/00
 
#8 ·
wow....that article really did it for me. almost every reason he listed was one that i had and that i guess is a wake up call...i guess getting a smaller bike for a year or 2 and then moving up is probably a good idea. thanks alot for the heads up guys...better to find out the easy way right?
 
#11 ·
good job redwing!

don't forget to get training www.msf-usa.org

and another good read.

Why buy a smaller, used bike first and then work your way up to the larger and/or more powerful bike?
This question seems to get debated ad-nauseum on internet discussion sites so I thought I'd put together my thoughts about it... take it or leave it, this advice is genuinely offered if you are in the position of starting motorcycling.

Many people view Harleys and other cruisers as proper bikes. Big 1000cc 1200cc bikes - "men's bikes"!! Or maybe the fastest bike ever, a Hayabusa 1300cc rocketship - woah, now that's a "real bike". So, a 600cc "crotch rocket" would be half the size and therefore a kid's bike - ideal for a learner obviously... Wrong - don't even go there. The big four manufacturers fight over that lucrative market like hungry hyenas, making beautiful shiny (virtually) race ready sportbikes that few new riders can resist.

So they innocently ask "which is the best 600cc bike to learn on?".

Comparing 600cc sportbikes as starter bikes is daft. They all have twice the power and a much much higher top speed than a cruiser. Some may be tamer than others but the basic premise of a middleweight sportbike is all wrong for learning motorcycle skills. The ergonomics are out and out dangerous for a newbie on the street ( reaching for clip ons, rear-set pegs, craning neck up in traffic, restricted turning circle etc etc..) and the power's too much. It's better to focus on a smaller displacement 'standard' bike. They are set up for more compliant handling and ride and they are more comfortable, an important point while you're learning.

Take the pressure off - get a starter bike to start on.

Accidents happen mostly between 6th month and 3rd year of riding so learn on something you won't be so upset about when you drop it.

A less powerful bike will not punish you so badly for jerking the throttle like a newbie.

Smaller and lighter bikes are easier to handle. There's a lot to think about until you're comfortable about turning, stopping, gearchanging acceleration.

The value of a smaller bike, eg a 250, is learning to get the performance out of them - it really teaches you to ride to the bike's and your own potential. A 250, 350, 400 might seem small to you at first, but think of it as a step in the journey, learn to wring it's neck and be a better rider in the long run.

Regardless of power and speed, it's a good idea for new riders to geta bike that allows both feet to be placed flat on the ground. This tends to inspire confidence and will eliminate a lot of concern about dropping the bike. Undeniably, the slow parking lot type manoevers are the trickiest for a new rider, and being able to put your feet down really helps.

Smaller bikes are also usually lighter - weight can be a big deal in gaining confidence on the first bike.

Starting on a faster bike makes learning proper brake technique harder. Most new riders cannot judge how to use brakes effectively, intuition tells us that using the front brake will "flip" the bike or make the tire slide out. It's common for new riders to thus make the mistake of depending on the rear brake and the faster you are going the deadlier it can be.

Insurance rates are much higher for the larger more powerful bikes.

What if you don't like riding? Used bikes don't depreciate as quickly as new bikes so you'll lose out less when you sell it.

If you buy a cheaper bike, you'll be able to afford better quality protective gear: Minumum should be full face helmet, Leather jacket, gloves, boots and leather pants (yes - leather pants: studies show the majority of injuries to bikers are lower body injuries). Also, wear all your gear every time you ride, even if it's just a mile or two down to the shops.

Here's a selfish reason: I've been riding for many years and I don't want newbies who are out of their depth tarnishing the image of sportbike riders - yes other more experienced and immature riders do plenty of that too but law enforcement can spot a newbie on a sportbike just as easily as you or I can.

The desire for a larger bike is sometimes (often) a result of peer pressure. How you deal with what others think of you is your problem but if you decide on the sportbike because you want to fit in or because your buddies said so, then you need to think really seriously about that.

Most expert riders recommend learning on a smaller bike as the safer route.

If you ask an experienced rider's opinion, find out from them: how experienced they are, exactly what they started on and what kind of riding they do.

The salesman at the bike showroom should NEVER be considered an experienced or expert rider in this matter. Whatever he says, take it with a pinch of salt, especially if it would seem to be helping him with a sale.

Newbies on powerful sportbikes look a LOT funnier wobbling round turns than newbies on smaller bikes.

Some people claim proudly ...I survived as a litre bike newbie... having got a big bad sportbike as their first bike and six months later, they're still around to talk about it. That's great but they were/are beating the odds and playing a high stakes game - the stake they are risking is their health or even their life. It's not really that wonderful. The other thing is, it's usually quite easy to spot the ones who started on b***** bikes - uncomfortable looking on the bike, less fluid on twisty roads, more focused on straightline speed than form, and quite embarrassing to watch at less than 5mph speeds.

This is not from my own experience, but many riders have said that motorcyclists who learn first on dirtbikes end up as better riders when they transition to streetbikes. This I think is a lot to do with throttle control, balance and learning far more about the limits of tire traction. So consider going that route first. MSF now runs Dirt Bike Schools for beginners.

A used bike will teach you about motorcycle maintainance, something every rider should at least know the basics of. It's less likely you'll want to get your hands dirty on a newer or more high-tech model.

Whichever bike you have decided on, try doing the basic Motorcycle Safety Foundation training course course BEFORE you commit to a bike. The MSF lend you a small displacement bike to start on and the time you spend riding that may help you with your decision. If you're outside the USA, take a look at these training links and see if you can find a local class.
 
#14 ·
xjrx,

Glad to see your thinking smartly about this. For your info, the full article text that RacerX is posted at:

http://www.beginnerbikes.com/editorials/formequalsfunction.htm
http://www.beginnerbikes.com/editorials/formequalsfunction2.htm

I started on a Ninja 250R and rode that for two years before upgrading to an FZR600. Best money and time I've spent on a bike and adequately prepared me to handle a 600cc machine. I would have hurt or killed myslef on the FZR given some of the newbie mistakes I made on the Ninja. The Ninja forgave mistakes that the FZR would have happily tossed me off for.
 
#16 ·
linuxbikr--- thanks for putting the links up to racer x's article, didnt know how to, and really wanted to get Racers info to this guy so i just cut/pasted it and typed in that Racer x posted it......

Racer X-- that was a great article, i showed it to a few friends at work that own cruisers, and think they dont need an MSF, there signing up for the next available one... your saving lives man, great job
 
#18 ·
redwing said:
linuxbikr--- thanks for putting the links up to racer x's article, didnt know how to, and really wanted to get Racers info to this guy so i just cut/pasted it and typed in that Racer x posted it......

Racer X-- that was a great article, i showed it to a few friends at work that own cruisers, and think they dont need an MSF, there signing up for the next available one... your saving lives man, great job
The articles are mine. I'm pleased they get quoted and used.
 
#19 ·
VFR mmm, lol i lived through the new shiny impulse want... so no Ninja for me
took the F4i out for a 150 mi or so before work, man i love that bike more and more and more...lol

gonna look at adding a bike in the future not trading off my F4i, and ya it will be a VFR from what i have seen and read

thanks again
 
#20 ·
so judging by everyones enthusiasm regarding this situation, i guess that the difference between a 500 and a 600 is greater than that of a 250 and a 500? is this correct? i mean numerically this is not true but is there a reason that the difference is so great from 500-600 and a 250 and 500 can both be used as a begginer bike?
 
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