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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
most cars ARE faster than bikes

i put this in a previous post, but it's so big now it's probably lost. But i thought i'd put it up again to put things in context for some of you. sure we have better acceleration than most cars, but corner speed is where we lose it all :eek:
2004 Road America lap times
American le Mans series:
P1 class: 1:51
P2: 1:58
GTS: 2:00
GT: 2:07
AMA Superbike Miguel Duhamel: 2:13

2003 Brazilian Grand prix in Rio (F1 hasn't raced there this year yet)
Formula One: 1:13
MotoGP Val Rossi pole: 1:49

Donington Park
British Touring Car Chamionship (2003): 1:14
MotoGP Val Rossi pole: 1:28
British Superbike (2003): 1:32

***so against the piddlier race cars, we could win. but anything in the big boy classes, no way. these aren't biased opinions, these are validated qualifying times.


and For those who need a refresher on the American Le Mans classes:
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LMP 1:
Premiere high-tech Le Mans prototypes feature exotic purpose-built race cars such as the Audi R8 or Riley & Scott, Panoz LMP1 or Lola. Minimum weight must be 900 kilograms (1980 pounds). These ultra sophisticated racing machines are capable of reaching speeds well over 200 MPH and can achieve upwards of 750-800 horsepower. All LMP 1 cars feature red race position lights on the ALMS lights system and red numbers.
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LMP 2:
Smaller and less powerful of the prototypes. Minimum weight must be 750 kilograms (1653 pounds) with top speeds of 180-200. Engine horsepower capacity can be in the 550-600 range. These prototypes are capable of the overall win because of the clear advantage in terms of power to weight ratio as well as fuel economy and tire wear advantages if set up and driven properly. All LMP 2 cars feature blue race position lights on the ALMS lights system and blue numbers.
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GTS:
Production-based, two-wheel drive highly modified cars such as Corvette, Ferrari 550 Maranello, Dodge Viper and Saleen. With horsepower ratings in the 550-600 range, GTS race cars are almost as quick as prototypes with top speeds of 180-195 MPH, but cornering and braking abilities are below the prototypes. All GTS cars feature green race position lights on the ALMS lights system and green numbers.
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GT:
Production-based cars only slightly modified such as Porsche, Ferrari Modena 360, Lamborghini and BMW. These race cars can reach 170-180 MPH with horsepower capacities of more than 450. All GT cars feature yellow race position lights on the ALMS lights system and yellow numbers.
 

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Good comparisons as long as the tracks are set up for the same distances in all cases. No reason to doubt that they are. Also bear in mind those are race cars driven by race drivers and race bikes ridden by racers. Our times would be somewhat slower. :D
 

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all those cars have extensive aerodynamic work done to them. bikes have nothing to compete with the downforce that those cars generate. i'm not making excuses for bikes, but its not really a fair fight, especially the formula 1 cars.

a better comparison would be lap times of street cars vs street bikes...but that comparo has been done plenty of times, so no need to go down that road again. :)
 

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Real race cars--with power-to-weight ratios on the order of 1000 hp/ton and wings that produce downforce several times greater than the vehicle's weight--are much faster than street cars. We're talking 35 seconds per lap at Laguna Seca, 1:10 for a Champ Car, 1:45 for a race-prepped but basically stock Viper driven by a top amateur. Champ Car does 3 laps in the time it takes the Viper to complete 2. Street cars have neither the power-to-weight ratio (more like 300 hp/ton) nor the aero devices that make race cars fast.

With motorcycles, OTOH, street machines are much closer to race machines. Also at Laguna, AMA Superbike's qualified last month at about 1:25 while Supersports--basically stock 600s with professional riders--ran 1:28s. Compared to cars, the bikes are much closer in power-to-weight and don't have the aero disparity.

However, track comparisons don't predict street performance differences. On the track, power-to-weight rules. Slow turns leading onto nice long straights make it equivalent to drag racing to some extent. That's why street motorcycles trounce street cars on the track. But on the typical mountain road where you might encounter a well-driven high-performance car, it's a much different story. What matters is speed carried into and through the corners, and a proper car with a good driver can usually beat a motorcycle on those counts.

BTW, I would guess that few riders have had the opportunity to ride bitch in a good car with licensed race driver on a twisty road. It's an eye-opening experience. No, make that an OMG eye-popping experience. Braking for the first turn, you'll think: "That's it. This guy's commiting suicide, and he's taking me with him." As he turns in, you're thrown hard against the belts like on a high-g roller coaster, and in an instant you're on the next straight gasping for breath and asking yourself, WTF just happened?
 

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I wonder if stock cars are faster than bikes at Deal's Gap ?
 

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Eddie Apex said:
BTW, I would guess that few riders have had the opportunity to ride bitch in a good car with licensed race driver on a twisty road. It's an eye-opening experience. No, make that an OMG eye-popping experience. Braking for the first turn, you'll think: "That's it. This guy's commiting suicide, and he's taking me with him." As he turns in, you're thrown hard against the belts like on a high-g roller coaster, and in an instant you're on the next straight gasping for breath and asking yourself, WTF just happened?

I have and managed to video it. It was just as you said, your 100% sure that your dead and then at the end of it all you kinda sit therein awe wondering how the fuck your still breathing..
 

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Best rider versus fastest car, the car wins by about 10 seconds over the 11 miles. mostly though, the good riders pass all of the cars (s2000s, wrx, vettes, porsche, etc.) I have video of me passing a new 911 carrera :D
 

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chaOs said:
I wonder if stock cars are faster than bikes at Deal's Gap ?
BWAAAAAAA! I can tell you that the cars on the gap when I was their where the slowest things out their!
 

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marsolais said:
BWAAAAAAA! I can tell you that the cars on the gap when I was their where the slowest things out their!
but the record for running the gap is held by a car (mazda rx-7, and formerly a miata).........
 

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As much of a bike lover as I am, at least I can admit that in a race with a good driver and a good rider, with both machines being setup very well, the car will win! I don't understand why so many bikers have a hard time believing this and come up with every excuse in the book they can to justify the fact that bikes are slower. Just accept it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
too many guys w/big egos. too many times they drag race cars. so they think that's all it takes. hobos who don't know a thing about corner speed
 

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Discussion Starter #13
still no. i watch both religiously. the gp bikes do get higher top speeds. gp bikes will out accelerate the f1. but the f1 has insane braking power. they get over 5 negative g's when braking...ie: they get light headed, some of the fat asses on this message board would pass out.
 

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Just watch Initial D...what cars can do through a corner...LOL


I do agree that a racer car can beat a moto gp bike through the corners. The biker has to worry about stability and the driver just kinda glads through the turn, and let his suspension do all the work. I mean the race car driver has lesser chance of flipping or crashing vs the bike who may lowside if the rider upset it, or even high side. The car needs less balls to make it through a tight corner, compare to the biker who needs more balls to make it throught a tight corner.

NOCHICKENSTRIPS good numbers you came up with
 

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Discussion Starter #15
MadChild said:
I do agree that a racer car can beat a moto gp bike through the corners. The biker has to worry about stability and the driver just kinda glads through the turn, and let his suspension do all the work. I mean the race car driver has lesser chance of flipping or crashing vs the bike who may lowside if the rider upset it, or even high side. The car needs less balls to make it through a tight corner, compare to the biker who needs more balls to make it throught a tight corner.

NOCHICKENSTRIPS good numbers you came up with
thanks, took some time but it's worth having objective data to base some opinions on. i've driven a lot of the tracks that i've ridden on & it's not the same. when i do the lap on the bike first, then jump in the car. i might turn out quicker times, but it's boring, relatively speaking. but there is PMI where i can get a bit over 160 on my cbr but in my talon i'd get maybe 130. my times there are much quicker on the bike because there's 2 long straights.
 

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Damn, I doubt it is physically possible to stop a bike that fast, with the front tire contact patch being so small. At least we have em beat in acceleration :D

Heres another question - GP bikes only make about 230hp correct? But I've heard of streetbikes making WAAAYYY more. Why don't they allow turbo charging or super charging? Would the accleration be too much for today's chassis design? Is the power delivery too hard to handle?

Also, obvioulsy a big reason these cars can take corners so fast is downforce. What about the duck-billed GSVR from a few years back? Couldn't a design like that provide motorcycles with signifigant downforce? I guess you'd have to do something for the back end as well though.

Oh well. For some reason I hate to think cars are faster than bikes.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
they could make more horsepower out of the bikes. but they restrict them for a couple of reasons. turbos have been outlawed in f1 too. part of competitive racing leagues is to breed new technology. we want these manufacturers to come up w/something better. this WILL be the last fastest year of motoGP. the FIM has already approved of 800 cc's for 2007. (don't quote me on the exact cc's. but it's 900 or less from what i remember reading) 2005 will be limited fuel, which means unless they can make the same hp w/less fuel in the next offseason, the bikes will lose horsepower. i don't think downforce will ever help the bike. it'd just make the bike easier to lowside, all that weight pushing down on it. i always believed they should allow the gp bikes to be lighter. than we'd brake harder & corner quicker.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Jackal79 said:
Heres another question - GP bikes only make about 230hp correct? But I've heard of streetbikes making WAAAYYY more.
yes, but gp bikes weight minimum(which they have all reached) 149kg, 320 lbs. i double checked, 2007 will be the year moto gp drops down to 900cc max. btw, that's why ama made the formula xtreme for 600cc. it's believed the literclass 'class' will go away.
 

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very good points...the way I see it is that our bikes (even the "mild" ones) are a LOT closer to race bikes than street cars are to race cars. Real world on the street, very few cars will be an issue for us (barring gravel).
 

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NoChickenStrips said:
yes, but gp bikes weight minimum(which they have all reached) 149kg, 320 lbs. i double checked, 2007 will be the year moto gp drops down to 900cc max. btw, that's why ama made the formula xtreme for 600cc. it's believed the literclass 'class' will go away.
I've been waiting for a thread that put it all together like this! Great job!

Kevin Schwantz and Motorcyclist Mag did a cover story back in April '02 comparing a stock Z06 Vette and
a stock 1K Gixxer.
The test took place at Willow Springs. Now, Schwantz is an accomplished race car driver as well,
having successfully competed in Porsche Cup, German Touring Car and other series following his
retirement from Bikes...

His times around that track on the bike trounced the Z06! They graphed both vehicles around the track.
Car vs Bike link
The Vette held a slight advantage only in breaking. What I found most interesting was that the bike,
with Kevin's knee all the way down, actually out-cornered the Vette by several .01 G's!

Then, they took a race bike, Nicky's RC51 and ran it against Michael Andretti's Champ series race car...

Conclusion: A well ridden high performance street bike can be quicker then it's four wheeled equivalent.

And that the race car evolves so far beyond a street car that the less radically prepped race bike stands no chance.
All these race cars pull major G's in all directions.
 
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