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Discussion Starter #1
I am curious, due to reading about the vandalism of different memorials and the recent calls to take down confederate memorials, where does it stop? I am don't believe that we should glorify slavery or anything like that and am in no way racist but if we are going to be taking down memorials then what ones should be included? All confederate memorials it would seem because those are memorials of people who supported slavery. Ok I get it but then shouldn't we be taking down some presidential memorials as well. 15 or so by my count as they also supported slavery or at the very lest did nothing about it. Also should we research to see if any union generals owned slaves and take those memorials down as well? Grant for one did own at least one slave and so it would be reasonable to say his monuments should be removed as well. In any case some of these things came to mind when reading about current events and I figured I would see if anyone had input.

P.S. Me personally I don't see a reason to remove historical monuments of any kind as they are part of our history but that's just me.
 

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There should be no memorials to anyone who advocated or fought for splitting the country apart for purposes of retaining chattal slavery. Neary every one of those memorials were erected decades after the Civil War, during Jim Crow, just like the Confederate flag itself, and designed to keep black people in line in the South.

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and all the others who had slaves were as confounded as they could be about what to do about slavery in the beginning of the country. It had been an insitution for over 150 years by the time the Constitution was ratified. All the slave holding forefathers knew that the institution could not last and that at some point it would be done way with but it was so deeply embedded in the Southern economy, few of them could personally do away with it. Washington, in his will, set his slaves free when he died. Jefferson never did. They were sold off to satisfy debts. And so on. But NONE of them threatened to split the nation in two (to preserve slavery). Only later did the Southern aristocracy advocate to leaving the federation.

Trump's bullshit about taking down statues of Washington (which you evidently buy into) is just what it is.

These dim witted Nazis should not be allowed to speak in some public places simply becuase their words are so inflammatory in certain places...like Charlottesville. They intended to provoke exactly the kind of reaction they got.
 

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P.S. Me personally I don't see a reason to remove historical monuments of any kind as they are part of our history but that's just me.

What don't you get about those memorials are symbols of slavery, hate, racism, and oppression of black Americans.

They don't belong in public places, and roads, parks, and other public places should never be named for these people.

There is a reason why Germany outlawed any public reference to Nazi Germany. That's part of their history isn't it? They don't ever want that kind of ideology to be part of their society ever again, and it's banned because anything Nazi is racist, promotes hate, and oppression.

Now, we have a 1st amendment, so in America if you personally want to worship this ideology, have fun, it's your right to do so, I won't stop you, but federal, state, and local, governments should not be endorsing symbols of, racism, hate and oppression, EVER!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
There should be no memorials to anyone who advocated or fought for splitting the country apart for purposes of retaining chattal slavery. Neary every one of those memorials were erected decades after the Civil War, during Jim Crow, just like the Confederate flag itself, and designed to keep black people in line in the South.

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and all the others who had slaves were as confounded as they could be about what to do about slavery in the beginning of the country. It had been an insitution for over 150 years by the time the Constitution was ratified. All the slave holding forefathers knew that the institution could not last and that at some point it would be done way with but it was so deeply embedded in the Southern economy, few of them could personally do away with it. Washington, in his will, set his slaves free when he died. Jefferson never did. They were sold off to satisfy debts. And so on. But NONE of them threatened to split the nation in two (to preserve slavery). Only later did the Southern aristocracy advocate to leaving the federation.

Trump's bullshit about taking down statues of Washington (which you evidently buy into) is just what it is.

These dim witted Nazis should not be allowed to speak in some public places simply becuase their words are so inflammatory in certain places...like Charlottesville. They intended to provoke exactly the kind of reaction they got.
First I would like to say that I didn't even know that Trump said something about taking down statues of Washington and no I would not advocate to remove them or any other statues. Also if you considered slavery to be a horrid then then why would you own a slave ... even if you release them when you die or whatever? I would hope that even if I lived in the time of slavery that I would not consider owning a slave. Even if I knew I could not stop slavery I would still not simply say well.... I might as well have my own slaves. Guess its a good thing I didn't live in that age. In any case thank you for sharing what your limit is.

What don't you get about those memorials are symbols of slavery, hate, racism, and oppression of black Americans.

They don't belong in public places, and roads, parks, and other public places should never be named for these people.

There is a reason why Germany outlawed any public reference to Nazi Germany. That's part of their history isn't it? They don't ever want that kind of ideology to be part of their society ever again, and it's banned because anything Nazi is racist, promotes hate, and oppression.

Now, we have a 1st amendment, so in America if you personally want to worship this ideology, have fun, it's your right to do so, I won't stop you, but federal, state, and local, governments should not be endorsing symbols of, racism, hate and oppression, EVER!
So your saying that anyone that goes to visit those memorials are racist? I understand that some people choose to see them as symbols of slavery, hate, racism, and oppression of black Americans but I doubt everyone sees them as such. In any case I was just posing a question as to where it should stop to see how far people are willing to go with it. I care little either way about monuments and statues.


Interesting enough in 1956 Germany started using the Iron Cross in the military again which was a Nazi symbol.

I wouldn't cry one bit if all the monuments got destroyed completely but that is mainly because I have little interest in going to any monuments and unless I happen to be driving right by one then I will never go see it. Now if it happens to be some great riding roads to get to one then maybe I will see some from time to time. In any case I have no love for any monument that I can think of but I know some people actually care to see such things and good for them. To me it is kind of like destroying the ruins of an ancient civilization that practiced cannibalism. Yes it was terrible the things they did but I still wouldn't destroy the place because it is historical and someone might care enough to want to see it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It was a german medal long before the Nazi's purloined it. I believe it came in to being in the early 1800's
Yes it was around long before the Nazi's purloined it but so was the swastika. Its sad really that all most people see when they look at these symbols is the Nazi regime when they have such great history and meaning.

BD what's your view on this? Is there a line that separate's what should be removed and what should not? Maybe a number of signatures needed to remove a memorial? Or are memorials and statues not of enough historical value to even worry about.

I have been searching myself trying to figure out where I truly stand on this and I am not completely sure yet. I guess if the memorial or statue isn't at a point of significant interest such as a great battle or the place a treaty was signed or something then take it down is about as close to the way I feel about it right now as anything but I am not sure that I have a firm position on the subject really.
 

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What does the first amendment have to do with removing officially sanctioned monuments to an attempt to preserve slavery? You are allowed to be a moron as loud as you want. There's no parallel that says the government has to maintain monuments that glorify a treasonous movement that was predicated on the subjugation of human beings.

Nice try, but your comment is a demonstration of a complete and utter failure to understand what you are talking about.
 

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I live on a street named for a president.

This is on one end.


I'm for adding context to the statues less than a mile from my house, not moving them. More people will get that on the "Avenue" then would in a museum.

Having said that I fully understand the people would are offended daily driving by them. I'm mostly pissed at the Heritage peeps for not being a part of the counter-protesters last w/e. If it truly is "heritage, not hate" they needed to be the most upfront and loudest raising hell at the KKK, Nazis & Alt-right shitheads.
 

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The South for all it's slow pace and easy living is a complex place. Back in the late 90's, as a favor, I sat in on a SCV banquet at a downtown private club. The speaker came out in full Confederate regalia and did a battle presentation based on letters from the war. Men steeled themselves and women wept, I shit you not. Standing "O" at the conclusion. The Lost Cause is alive here. The clash that night for me was that 100% of the service personnel at that banquet was black. I'm sure the kitchen convo was hilarious.
 

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First I would like to say that I didn't even know that Trump said something about taking down statues of Washington and no I would not advocate to remove them or any other statues. Also if you considered slavery to be a horrid then then why would you own a slave ... even if you release them when you die or whatever? I would hope that even if I lived in the time of slavery that I would not consider owning a slave. Even if I knew I could not stop slavery I would still not simply say well.... I might as well have my own slaves. Guess its a good thing I didn't live in that age. In any case thank you for sharing what your limit is.







So your saying that anyone that goes to visit those memorials are racist? I understand that some people choose to see them as symbols of slavery, hate, racism, and oppression of black Americans but I doubt everyone sees them as such. In any case I was just posing a question as to where it should stop to see how far people are willing to go with it. I care little either way about monuments and statues.





Interesting enough in 1956 Germany started using the Iron Cross in the military again which was a Nazi symbol.



I wouldn't cry one bit if all the monuments got destroyed completely but that is mainly because I have little interest in going to any monuments and unless I happen to be driving right by one then I will never go see it. Now if it happens to be some great riding roads to get to one then maybe I will see some from time to time. In any case I have no love for any monument that I can think of but I know some people actually care to see such things and good for them. To me it is kind of like destroying the ruins of an ancient civilization that practiced cannibalism. Yes it was terrible the things they did but I still wouldn't destroy the place because it is historical and someone might care enough to want to see it.

I'm saying they don't belong in public, on public streets or parks. It's an admission from the government that they agree with the hate and oppression of these monuments.
 

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It'll be interesting to see how the conundrum is settled here. All the monuments here were privately funded. Most of the monuments here are city owned, except for the oldest, which is state owned. The whole Monument Avenue District is a federally declared National Historic Landmark. Hard to imagine all those institutions coming together. Plus their scope and size wouldn't lend themselves to an indoor venue. I'm in favor of historical context being added at each site.







 

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Discussion Starter #14
Ok so BD you got me now.... I might have lied that I wouldn't want to visit any monuments. There are some that are breathtaking and I wouldn't mind going to see them in person. Some you just put pictures up of would be great to visit.... or maybe its just the city that would be great to visit. Very nice pictures man.
 

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Monument Avenue Richmond, VA. Tourism is an almost $2 billion a year deal here and alot of it is civil war related.

Hollywood Cemetary has two US Presidents buried there, the CSA President, 18,000+ confederate enlisted men and a monument



In other parts of the city we have







The White House and Museum of the Confederacy is here.



I'm just not certain how you untangle all this from their current locations.
 

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When I lived in VA I hated Richmond. It's was the pleasant racism. Unfortunately, as I've said before, monuments that glorify the confederacy should not be in public.

Now, a civil war park, where one would Union and Confederate monuments together, and tell the story of how fucking wrong the confederacy was, I can see that.

I don't know if that monument alley tells both sides or not, but at the end of the symbols of hate, oppression and slavery have no place in public.

Lastly, they never should have been there in the first place, so I don't have a problem if they were removed. Confederate monuments were/are a reminder of the war they are still fighting, which is why they need to go bye, bye.
 

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Here's the bottom line.

Monuments normally are put up to celebrate something: a war, a special person like Lincoln (a monument) or FDR (a coin) or Washington (an oblelisk). The person or thing beling celebrated should be something all Americans can agree on. These people all did something which adds to the portrait we paint of ourselves and our posterity. Lincoln kept the nation together, FDR kept the nation from collapsing in an economic meltdown and guided the country through its worst foreign war.

Why should there NOT be a monument to Confederates like Lee, Davis, Jackson, Beauregard, etc.? Simply because they aided and supported the dissolution of the United States—a rebellion—in order to preserve chattel slavery in this country. Nothing more. Not states' rights, not "honor," not anything else but to preserve a way of life which was inimical to every word, every right expressed in the Declaration of Independece and the Constitution.

If you view all these monuments in their historical context, you know that the vast majority of them were put up from 1890 through the 1920's, when Jim Crow, lynchings, and the KKK were at their height years after the Civil War. There are monuments to Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest everywhere in the South and this is a guy who massacred hundreds of captured black soldiers in the Fort Pillow incident. Forrest also was a Grand Wizard of the KKK after the war.

I personally think that all those monuments were put up to let blacks and whites in the South know where each's "place" was during that awful time.
 

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The monuments here were put up around the time that sons and daughters of those Confederates were losing and had lost them. It was also in the era that Richmond was finally fully recovering and had the financial means to commission & erect them. At that time they were all privately funded (over the course of 10 or more yrs) and erected on private lands that developers were hoping would nudge expansion of the city to the west. The ownership passed to state & local governments later.

I'm just as certain that Jim Crow played into it for alot of people. 100,000 people gathered for the Lee Monument dedication.
 

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This is the best statement on these monuments that you'll ever hear. Set a few minutes aside to hear Mitch Landreiu's speaking to fellow New Orleanians. Incredibly articulate and powerful.

 
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