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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A recent survey found that more than three-fourths of Americans fear that E15 fuel may damage car engines and fuel system components, the American Motorcyclist Association reports.

Also, more than two-thirds of those surveyed believe that using more corn for ethanol production could force up food prices, the AMA said.

E15 is a fuel blend of 15 percent ethanol and 85 percent gasoline that the federal Environmental Protection Agency has approved for use in 2001-and-newer passenger vehicles. Ethanol is grain alcohol produced from crops such as corn that is mixed with gasoline to produce an ethanol-gasoline blend motor fuel.

E15 is not approved for use in any motorcycles, all-terrain vehicles, boats, lawn mowers and other small engines. Since 2011, the AMA has repeatedly expressed concerns to government officials and federal lawmakers about possible damage to the estimated 22 million motorcycles and ATVs currently in use by the inadvertent use of E15, which is now becoming available at gas stations.

The survey findings were released on Oct. 2 by the American Petroleum Institute, which sponsored the poll. The API is a national trade association that represents America’s oil and natural gas industry.

Some 77 percent of registered voters are concerned that ethanol blends above a 10 percent level can cause severe damage to car engines and fuel system components, according to the poll.

Also, 69 percent of those surveyed said that using more corn for ethanol production could increase consumer prices for groceries due to a reduction in the corn supply for food, food products and animal feed.

The survey was conducted by telephone between Sept. 19-23 by Harris Interactive. Pollsters surveyed 1,034 registered voters across the country. The survey has a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percent, which means that the results could vary by 3 percent either way if the survey had involved the entire U.S. population of registered voters.

Wayne Allard (AMA Vice President for Government Relations) says: “The bottom line is that motorcyclists want access to safe fuels for motorcycles.

“Given marketplace realities, wherever E15 is sold there will very likely be misfueling issues due to confusing or improper labeling at the pump. Misfueling could even occur if a rider selects a fuel grade other than E15 on a fuel blender pump and receives E15 leftover in the hose from a previous user.”

Research results released by the Coordinating Research Council indicate that E15 would damage millions of post-2001 model-year vehicles even though the EPA has approved the use of E15 in those vehicles. The study concluded that E15 would result in fuel-system failures in cars and other approved vehicles.

Moreover, the California Air Resources Board has told the AMA that even if it approves the sale of the new E15 ethanol-gasoline blend in California, the blend wouldn’t appear in the market for several years. Specifically, CARB wanted time to complete the necessary vehicle testing and rule development in order to introduce a new transportation fuel into California’s market. CARB made the comment in response to a letter from Allard, who expressed concern about potential misfueling of E15 into motorcycles and all-terrain vehicles.

Wayne Allard says: “The AMA wants motorcycles and ATVs to be part of an independent scientific study on the effects of E15 so that riders know what to expect if they inadvertently put E15 in their gas tanks, or if E15 is eventually approved for motorcycle and ATV use.

“Not only should the study focus on the short- and long-term impacts on vehicles and engines, it should also quantify the financial toll that increased ethanol in gasoline will levy on consumers, dealers and service facilities, vehicle and engine manufacturers, fuel retailers, distributors and producers, and the environment.”

AMA: New Survey Reveals Americans Fear E15 Fuel
 

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I haven't seen the stuff yet, so I don't know what kind of earning panels will be posted, if any. If I find a blender pump with both fuels, I'll dump a gallon in the trash before putting it in my bike to get rid of the E15 in the hose.

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I haven't seen the stuff yet, so I don't know what kind of earning panels will be posted, if any. If I find a blender pump with both fuels, I'll dump a gallon in the trash before putting it in my bike to get rid of the E15 in the hose.

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I believe due to successful lobbying by AMA, blender pumps are not allowed to dispense E15.
 

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such BS. i would rather buy .9 gallons of pure gas, then 1 gallon of e10 for the same price. my car looses ~10% efficiency, so what's the point, ethanol is merely a contaminant in my opinion. now it's is only going to get worse.
 

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Most of the OP is much ado about nothing.

Cars are handling E85 without failed fuel systems. The only difference is a few cheap material changes and larger injectors. Considering ethanol has been around for decades, if any cars are still being built that can't handle it, that's the manufacturer's fault.

Fueling with the wrong one? Isn't that already an issue with diesel and different octanes? I've not once accidentally used the wrong octane or diesel. You simply look at the label.

The E15 movement is, interestingly, a relaxation of government restriction. Which makes it ironic when those who fight against this change claim to be for less government control.

The problems are mainly for older cars, and vehicles with small tanks that don't have injectors that can handle the flow rates necessary to run greater amounts of ethanol, such as motorcycles.

The real issue here is subsidies for ethanol. Eliminate those and, even with zero government restrictions on ethanol content, you'll see it go away almost entirely.
 
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Most of the OP is much ado about nothing.

Cars are handling E85 without failed fuel systems. The only difference is a few cheap material changes and larger injectors. Considering ethanol has been around for decades, if any cars are still being built that can't handle it, that's the manufacturer's fault.

Fueling with the wrong one? Isn't that already an issue with diesel and different octanes? I've not once accidentally used the wrong octane or diesel. You simply look at the label.

The E15 movement is, interestingly, a relaxation of government restriction. Which makes it ironic when those who fight against this change claim to be for less government control.

The problems are mainly for older cars, and vehicles with small tanks that don't have injectors that can handle the flow rates necessary to run greater amounts of ethanol, such as motorcycles.

The real issue here is subsidies for ethanol. Eliminate those and, even with zero government restrictions on ethanol content, you'll see it go away almost entirely.
The problem isn't selecting the wrong fuel, it's E10 becoming unavailable like pure gas is now. Also with my bike, I usually never buy more than 3 or 4 gallons of fuel. At a blender pump with one hose, if the guy before me bought E15, I'm still getting a gallon of E15 from the hose even if I select E10.

EPA has mandated anyone buying E10 from a blender pump with E15 must buy a minimum of 5 gallons to dilute the E15, most bikes don't hold that. Neither does the 1 gallon jug I use to mix 2 stroke in for my yard tools.

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In canuckianland, I can still get pure fuel.

and I do. And any time anyone asks why I pay out the nose for premium (Shell v power and Superstore premium are the only non-corn fuels) they get told that it's because the fuel fucking sucks otherwise.
 

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The problem isn't selecting the wrong fuel, it's E10 becoming unavailable like pure gas is now.
That should be the market's choice to make freely without government involvement.

Also with my bike, I usually never buy more than 3 or 4 gallons of fuel. At a blender pump with one hose, if the guy before me bought E15, I'm still getting a gallon of E15 from the hose even if I select E10.

EPA has mandated anyone buying E10 from a blender pump with E15 must buy a minimum of 5 gallons to dilute the E15, most bikes don't hold that. Neither does the 1 gallon jug I use to mix 2 stroke in for my yard tools.
Firstly, a typical 10' hose with a 1" inside diameter only holds 0.4 gallons. Not an entire gallon. Secondly, the minimum is 4 gallons, not 5. Thirdly this minimum is not an EPA mandate. In fact, it is a requirement submitted to the EPA by the fuel industry as their way of dealing with this issue, which the EPA then approved. It's not the EPA telling the industry what it must do, it's the industry telling the EPA what it chooses to do in its push for greater use of Ethanol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
That should be the market's choice to make freely without government involvement.
Most of the market drives cages. If we let the market decide, the minority (motorcycles) won't have sufficient access to proper fuel.
 

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Most of the OP is much ado about nothing.

Cars are handling E85 without failed fuel systems. The only difference is a few cheap material changes and larger injectors. Considering ethanol has been around for decades, if any cars are still being built that can't handle it, that's the manufacturer's fault.

Fueling with the wrong one? Isn't that already an issue with diesel and different octanes? I've not once accidentally used the wrong octane or diesel. You simply look at the label.

The E15 movement is, interestingly, a relaxation of government restriction. Which makes it ironic when those who fight against this change claim to be for less government control.

The problems are mainly for older cars, and vehicles with small tanks that don't have injectors that can handle the flow rates necessary to run greater amounts of ethanol, such as motorcycles.

The real issue here is subsidies for ethanol. Eliminate those and, even with zero government restrictions on ethanol content, you'll see it go away almost entirely.
I have to agree. If you have an older bike that is carbureted, you want to stay away from ethanol fuels.....just bump up to premium.

If you have a fuel injected bike, no worries.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have to agree. If you have an older bike that is carbureted, you want to stay away from ethanol fuels.....just bump up to premium.

If you have a fuel injected bike, no worries.
When I was down south, I found ethanol free gasoline and ran it in my bike for a few tankfuls to see if it ran better. I couldn't tell a difference.

The E15 though, I've never run it. If AMA thinks it will harm motorcycle engines, I'm going to believe that.
 

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Most of the OP is much ado about nothing.

Cars are handling E85 without failed fuel systems. The only difference is a few cheap material changes and larger injectors. Considering ethanol has been around for decades, if any cars are still being built that can't handle it, that's the manufacturer's fault.

Fueling with the wrong one? Isn't that already an issue with diesel and different octanes? I've not once accidentally used the wrong octane or diesel. You simply look at the label.

The E15 movement is, interestingly, a relaxation of government restriction. Which makes it ironic when those who fight against this change claim to be for less government control.

The problems are mainly for older cars, and vehicles with small tanks that don't have injectors that can handle the flow rates necessary to run greater amounts of ethanol, such as motorcycles.

The real issue here is subsidies for ethanol. Eliminate those and, even with zero government restrictions on ethanol content, you'll see it go away almost entirely.
The plastic tank on my Ducati disagrees with you. It is already behaving like drunk on E10. I can't imagine what E15 does to it.
 

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Even my fuel injected 2013 model car gets 2-3 mpg better running ethanol free fuel than it does running E10, and if the mileage is that much better you know the engine is running better.
Fuck ethanol,

My snow blower is from 1965
My lawnmower is from 1984
My chain saw is from 1986

I always run ethanol free fuel in those, unfortunately the closest station is 9 miles away.
 

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In canuckianland, I can still get pure fuel.

and I do. And any time anyone asks why I pay out the nose for premium (Shell v power and Superstore premium are the only non-corn fuels) they get told that it's because the fuel fucking sucks otherwise.
What do you guys pay up there for a gallon of regular?
 

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a litre of regular (87 octane, 10% Cornshit) is $1.18 right now.
premium is up around $1.35.

and not all premium is ethanol free.

riverszzr:
the reason your car gets better mileage on pure gasoline, with no ethanol, is because ethanol has less explosive energy in it by weight. less energy available=less given per explosion. which means you don't go as far on a single gallon of boomjuice.
 

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If the vehicle is tuned for e-whatever fuel and it has ethanol compatible fuel system and engine, It would run stronger on the ethanol. Ethanol is cleaner, and will make an engine run cooler, and last longer than a gas engine. Ethanol also has a ridiculously high octane equivlent, like 112 or 116. But, ethanol has about 45% the latent heat of evaporation that gas does, so you could require 2 to 2.2 times the amount of fuel. If your fuel system hasn't rotted off of the stuff yet, it probably won't. The reason the bikes act retarded on it is more than likely they are running rich on fuel, because of the enhanced power of the ethanol.
Also most of the ethanol in use today comes off as a biproduct of several different corn items. I forgot which beer manufacturer it was produces more waste ethanol than they do beer. It is not wasted. I'll jump down now, and let y'all mull that over.
 

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That is only true if the engine was tuned to run on ethanol or if it can sense the ammount of ethanol in the fuel, like flex fuel vehicles. Vehicles that don't have ethanol sensing capabilities "tolerate" running on ethanol by compensating the leaner burn with more fuel, but not all of them can correct for e15 or e20, O2 sensors are just meant to do a fine tunning, for varying weather conditions, atmospheric pressure, etc.

My XT660R, which has an open loop FI (no O2 sensor) is getting the same MPGs on E10 than it does on regular gasoline, but it is running leaner and actually hotter. My XJR1300 hates E10 with passion, it can barely idle with that stuff.
 
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Hell. it could be more lean, I was tired when I wrote that. Closed loop fuel injection and a knock sensor with a self adjusting fuel map is all it takes to correct for ethanol. Real racers use ethanol, and methanol all the time. They do sound odd though. Also off topic, in top fuel drag racing along with others nitromethane is cut with methanol.
To add this I'm told by my drag racing buddies you can expect 20-30% increase in horsepower from the same motor switching from gas to meth.

TABLE 1 Fuel Engine Air Flow (cfm) lbs of air (lbs) A/F Ratio Pounds of Fuel (lbs) Energy Content of Fuel (BTU/lb) Total Thermal Energy (BTU)
Gasoline 567.53 42.64 12.8:1 2.89 1 8,500 53,176
Methanol 567.53 42.64 6.0:1 7.11 9,500 67,545
Nitromethane 567.53 42.64 1.7:1 25.08 5,000 125,412
 

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racers use ethanol because it has a stupid high octane rating when pure, so they can run ridiculous timing advance and compression values. and in boosted classes, they can run ridiculous boost pressures and not run into detonation.
 
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