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sexyicecold said:
If you maintain your position of privelege, and strive to protect it, you contribute to the continuing existence of racism in your society, however small that contribution may be.

If you make everyone equal, isn't that communism? No thanks. January 1, 1863, I'm sure you know the date, almost 150 years have passed. Granted, racism existed for longer then that, but nothing's impossible. However, that's what? 4 generations? 5? Bottomline is theres been enough time for anyone to bust their ass and get where they want.

However, as far as Dave's question between the 2 inviduals, it's a loaded question and a shit scenerio. There is NO way that 2 inviduals have identical resumes. Even by some slight chance that they were close enough, being a minority or majority would play ZERO into my decision, and to base my final call on such would be racism in itself, no?
 

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license2ill said:
I'd suggest taking an introductory Sociology class, poly sci class, communication class, or any other social science class to get a better grasp of even the most complex ideas that Dave has presented. You'll be glad you did.
Racism can't happen with a minority class? Well you just answered my questions regarding your views on racism. As far as my educational background, I've got quite a few social science classes under my belt, pysch, abnormal pysch, soci, poly sci, human sexuality, social and political philo (really pertains to this conversation) and a couple more, but I don't remember them off the top of my head. I'm a criminal justice major, my experience in this field is limited as of now. A lot of thse complex ideas are more opinion based then anything else, but that's the beauty of a forum, it's all opinion.
 

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"Can't we all just get along?"--Rodney King
"Yeah, as soon as you stop stealing shit!"--Chris Rock

Does that make Chris a racists, an apologist, an uncle Tom, an elitist? Why is that whenever one person in here lowers the bar, another one finds a way to crawl under it?
Look for problems with anybody, and I guarantee you will find something to bitch about.
This thread is officially retarded. No offence to retards.
 

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license2ill said:
Racism happens fro mteh top down, it isn't somethign a minority class is capable of.
That is the most ridiculous thing that you have put into this thread. And that is saying a lot. See meriam - webster.

racism - a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

It does not say "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a majority race."

If I say something derogatory about the black race, that would be racist. If a black says something derogatory about the white race, that would be equally as racist. But it is like I said before. It is only socially acceptable to be racist against whites these days, rather than seeing all men as created equal and holding all to the same standards regradless of race.

license2ill said:
The problem is when talking aobut this stuff, I have to dip into uneduicated arguments that are forever trappedwithin ignorance as a justification for their merit, which makes it very hard to break out of all in one post or thread.
No, the problem is that no argument you present holds up in the real world, and so you just label anything that goes against you as ingorance because it is the only argument you have against it.

license2ill said:
I'd suggest taking an introductory Sociology class, poly sci class, communication class, or any other social science class to get a better grasp of even the most complex ideas that Dave has presented. You'll be glad you did.
I have no need to take any classes. I have posted nothing but real world examples from my own experiences. Examples that I know to be true because they were experienced by me or someone that I am close to.

As far as Daves complex idea's, he has yet to present one. Convolution of functions is a complex idea. Inverse Chebychev response of high order electrical filters is a complex idea. All Dave has done is present his opinions, none of which qualify as being remotely complex.
 

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EEfz6 said:
As far as Daves complex idea's, he has yet to present one. Convolution of functions is a complex idea. Inverse Chebychev response of high order electrical filters is a complex idea. All Dave has done is present his opinions, none of which qualify as being remotely complex.
I see no particular reason to be insulting, but for that matter, you're right, there's nothing particularly complex about fairness. The only time I am affected by racism or even have to give it a second thought is when trying to discuss it with people who like to figure out who's more racist than whom.

The thought that two people applying for a job might not be EQUALLY QUALIFIED (note I didn't same THE SAME) is not a possibility is laughable. I won't be losing any sleep over people who think the scenario is "shit".

Picking out random incidents of apparent reverse discrimination, without adequate proof that they indeed are more than anecdotal, and trying to present it as a huge social ill suppressing the white people is not particularly complex either.
 

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sexyicecold said:
Yes. I would also try reading "My Traitor's Heart" by Rian Malan. It deals with apartheid in South Africa and made me understand something I didn't have a clear grasp on prior to completing the book. There is an inherent advantage in being white. One must be willing to give up their position of privelege before they are an equal with someone from the other group, in this case the other group is blacks in South Africa. If you maintain your position of privelege, and strive to protect it, you contribute to the continuing existence of racism in your society, however small that contribution may be.
Is there an inherant advantage in being white, sexy?

How is it that I had such an advantage? I grew up in the dirty poor city neighborhoods and when it was time for me to go to college.........the fact that I was WHITE was a disadvantage. My parents surely didnt make enough money to send me, but I didnt qualify for nearly as many grants as one of another color or race. I was given...........400 bucks and borrowed the rest.

I made my own advantages in life, not my skin color.
 

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BusaDave said:
I see no particular reason to be insulting, but for that matter, you're right, there's nothing particularly complex about fairness. The only time I am affected by racism or even have to give it a second thought is when trying to discuss it with people who like to figure out who's more racist than whom.
I said nothing insulting. I mearly said that you put forth no complex ideas. For that matter, no one has put forth any complex idea's on this topic. The reason that I called you by name is because it was your idea's that were called complex by l2ill. Not to insinuate anything about you. I have no reason to insult you over harboring a different opinion than mine. It is your right.

BusaDave said:
The thought that two people applying for a job might not be EQUALLY QUALIFIED (note I didn't same THE SAME) is not a possibility is laughable. I won't be losing any sleep over people who think the scenario is "shit".
I did not say that they could not be equally qualified. Merely that, even it equally qualified, they would almost never be equally suited for the same position at the same company, even if equally qualified. And I gave you an answer of what would happen in that scenario, versus what should happen.

BusaDave said:
Picking out random incidents of apparent reverse discrimination, without adequate proof that they indeed are more than anecdotal, and trying to present it as a huge social ill suppressing the white people is not particularly complex either.
I did not present anything as proof of a huge socail ill. Just that there is no struggle for black equality anymore. Only people that like to play that card based on the past struggle to get advantages solely based on their race, that they do not deserve based on their merit. If they deserved this advantages based on their merit, the race card would never be played.

I also never claimed to say anything complex. Just give real world examples.
 

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hybrid said:
Is there an inherant advantage in being white, sexy?

How is it that I had such an advantage? I grew up in the dirty poor city neighborhoods and when it was time for me to go to college.........the fact that I was WHITE was a disadvantage. My parents surely didnt make enough money to send me, but I didnt qualify for nearly as many grants as one of another color or race. I was given...........400 bucks and borrowed the rest.

I made my own advantages in life, not my skin color.
Exactly. I got a full ride to school. Was it because of my color? No, it was because my high school gpa and my ACT score earned me a full academic ride. I busted my butt and it paid off. But it was amazing how much money I found out that I could have got had I been another race, which would not require near the academic merit.
 

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BusaDave said:
I won't be losing any sleep over people who think the scenario is "shit".

The scenario was shit because you wanted him to choose based on color....

How racist is that?

I believe its the DEFINITION of racism actually.....


But for some reason you would sit on your soapbox and say because of "all the years" of discrimination it would somehow be his job to help correct that by be racist AGAINST the white person...

Truly sad...
 

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hybrid said:
Is there an inherant advantage in being white, sexy?

How is it that I had such an advantage? I grew up in the dirty poor city neighborhoods and when it was time for me to go to college.........the fact that I was WHITE was a disadvantage. My parents surely didnt make enough money to send me, but I didnt qualify for nearly as many grants as one of another color or race. I was given...........400 bucks and borrowed the rest.

I made my own advantages in life, not my skin color.
So did I. I don't come from any money whatsoever. Both my parents were high school graduates who have worked the same jobs since they were 18. My parents divorced when I was young and my mother struggled to feed, clothe and keep a roof over my sister and I. I was an excellent student, well-rounded in activities, etc. Got some scholarships to college, but certainly not enough. I owe $20k in school loans. But, I graduated magna cum laude and have a job making more than any other 25 year-old I know. I have busted my ass my entire life and been put through the meat grinder with some bullshit I've had to deal with as a child and a teenager.

However, I am not mad at any race because I owe money from my schooling. I am not angry at any group of people that look different than me and got more scholarships. I am not mad at the financial situation from which I came. It has made me the hard-working successful person that I am now. The fact is, you see your situation as a disadvantage, when in fact, it probably has helped you be a successful business owner.

Back to my prior statement about the advantage of being white. There are daily positions of privelege you enjoy when you look a certain way. Are you glared at suspiciously when you enter a convenient store? Are given poor service at a bar or restaurant when others next to you are treated like royalty? Do you refrain from visiting certain parts of the country or parts of your state due to the attitudes of locals?

These things happen here and now. Truck says it's been almost 150 years since the Emancipation Proclomation was signed. All that did was outlaw slavery. It did not get rid of a whole new way to enslave non-whites, however. Jim Crow laws were in effect as little as 40 years ago. Just because almost 150 years have elapsed since that historic piece of paper, does not mean there is still not work to be done.

To think that racism is not alive and well in this country is ignorance, pure and simple. When I visit my home town and get called a ******-lover for having a black boyfriend, I fail to see how our country has realized MLK's dream for our nation.
 

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^ lol That was the best you could come up with for asking a loaded, racist question and expecting everyone to respond exactly as you wanted?


Im disappointed
 

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hanglowejohnson said:
^ lol That was the best you could come up with for asking a loaded, racist question and expecting everyone to respond exactly as you wanted?


Im disappointed
Like I said previously, whatever dude! Keep throwing around your labels. I won't be losing any sleep.
 

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sexyicecold said:
So did I. I don't come from any money whatsoever. Both my parents were high school graduates who have worked the same jobs since they were 18. My parents divorced when I was young and my mother struggled to feed, clothe and keep a roof over my sister and I. I was an excellent student, well-rounded in activities, etc. Got some scholarships to college, but certainly not enough. I owe $20k in school loans. But, I graduated magna cum laude and have a job making more than any other 25 year-old I know. I have busted my ass my entire life and been put through the meat grinder with some bullshit I've had to deal with as a child and a teenager.
Im not saying you havent. As a matter of fact I find most of your writing to be extremely intelligent by design. I just dont happen to sit on the same side of the fence in some of our conversations. Different people, different ideals.

sexyicecold said:
However, I am not mad at any race because I owe money from my schooling. I am not angry at any group of people that look different than me and got more scholarships. I am not mad at the financial situation from which I came. It has made me the hard-working successful person that I am now. The fact is, you see your situation as a disadvantage, when in fact, it probably has helped you be a successful business owner.
Actually you interperet my anger at the system for what it is. I dont really have any anger towards any person of any color. Ive met and befriended lots of "minorities" and like to immurse myself in cultural diversity. Like Ive stated before, most of my true friends from back home are black.

While you would like to attribute my success story to the way the system is, the fact of the matter is, I owe it completely to my grandfather, who had the insight to teach me what a hard working individual was capable of. He taught me the value in why my family came to america and why it was so imperative to struggle for greatness.

One's last name shouldnt be involved in who gets to have money tossed at them. One's skin color shouldnt make any difference on how they are given opportunities. But you know what? It is a factory and because whites were the offender initialy, I pay for it now.

sexyicecold said:
Back to my prior statement about the advantage of being white. There are daily positions of privelege you enjoy when you look a certain way. Are you glared at suspiciously when you enter a convenient store? Are given poor service at a bar or restaurant when others next to you are treated like royalty? Do you refrain from visiting certain parts of the country or parts of your state due to the attitudes of locals?
There is some truth to what you say but it goes much deeper than what your putting forth. Good looking people are bestowed much the same treatment over less fortunate individuals of the same color. So while I see what your saying. I have been the only white guy at a table with all my black friends and not seen any difference in how I was served. Could it be that my singular white presence changed the air about the service? Doubtfull.

Im never glared at suspiciously anywhere I go. Most people find me to be very charming. I can walk into a black neighborhood and not have any problems. Can most white people do that? So that example is kind of irrelevant, I see both sides of the coin on the issue.

sexyicecold said:
These things happen here and now. Truck says it's been almost 150 years since the Emancipation Proclomation was signed. All that did was outlaw slavery. It did not get rid of a whole new way to enslave non-whites, however. Jim Crow laws were in effect as little as 40 years ago. Just because almost 150 years have elapsed since that historic piece of paper, does not mean there is still not work to be done.

To think that racism is not alive and well in this country is ignorance, pure and simple. When I visit my home town and get called a ******-lover for having a black boyfriend, I fail to see how our country has realized MLK's dream for our nation.
Youre completely right Sexy, things are happening here and now. Youre also right that the emancipation proclamation didnt really do shit for the black community but start the suffocation of slavery.

I dont think that racism isnt alive and well. But one sure way to keep it going is to feed into it.

Feeding into it is saying that if I started a United White College fund and it was determined to be racist is just fueling the fire. Why have it labeled as anything?

Im realy just tired of hate mongers using the race card.

And Im really sorry you have to deal with ignorant people that would call a fine man like Malik, a ******. I have always liked his writing and its unfortunate that someone would use that term to belittle you and him at the same time. But you can rest assured, showing anyone that it bothers either of you, only makes them more hungry to push the envelope.
 

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That was really my point. I merely meant the start of the end of racism began with that document. I'm no racist, do I have friends that tend to have racist tendencies? Sure, but they are friends that are white, and friends that are black. A friend from work told me I couldn't go to a party he was throwing because I was white. Sure sounds racist to me. We've always included him in everything we've done, afterall, there is NO difference between us. We don't strive to be equal, we are equal.

As far as people throwing slurs at you Sexy, sorry to hear about it. But to think that people from the other camp don't throw those same slurs out is ridiculas.
 

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Truck said:
As far as people throwing slurs at you Sexy, sorry to hear about it. But to think that people from the other camp don't throw those same slurs out is ridiculas.
I don't think that. I never said I thought people from "the other camp" didn't say or do ridiculous things. Of course they do. That's part of the point, though. There's always a fair number of assholes from any contingent of people. There's also a fair number of people just trying to make their way in life. If assistance in the form of scholarships, job incentives, or any other form is available to individual, why would they not take advantage of it? Of course, you'd say I was stupid not to take a promotion offered to me, even if I got it because I was a woman. That is the result of the hiring agency's practices (in this example) or whatever institution under which the practice occurs.

These companies, educational institutions, and other agencies felt there was a need to provide opportunities for people. If a majority of people hadn't felt this way at some point in time, these practices would not be in existence. Some may argue that the time has come to abolish practices such as affirmative action. I would argue that we, as a society, have not yet reached that point. Economic disparities between races support that point.

From this article:
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/03/21/Worldandnation/Education_gaps_closin.shtml

WASHINGTON -- Educational gaps between men and women and whites and blacks have narrowed in recent years, but this much has not changed: A highly educated white man still makes much more than anyone else.

On average, a white man with a college diploma earned about $65,000 in 2001. Similarly educated white women made about 40 percent less, while black and Hispanic men earned 30 percent less, according to Census Bureau estimates being released today.
 

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We're do for a new census, so we'll see how it turns out, hopefully some gaps close up or new information comes about. I'm not going to argue numbers, no point in it. However, I knew the numbers on women already (big time feminist soci prof :eek:nfloor). BUT! You also have to look at career breakdowns too. Women with college degress do not get into the same type of work as men do. For example, many grade school and highschool teachers are female, where as college professors tend to be male (in my experience its usually 3-1 for both situations). Big time difference in pay there. You didn't state what degree of education they had, so I can't say what field people and or pay scale people fall into. As far as minorities, I'd have to look stuff up, and its 2am, so that's work for another day :D.
 

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sexyicecold said:
If a majority of people hadn't felt this way at some point in time, these practices would not be in existence.
Also, this couldn't be farther from the truth. This has to be the ONLY country in the world where the minority vote seems to end up on top. How many times do we hear about small protests for one thing or another ending up or changing something?

Now I'm not saying a majority of people didn't feel one way or another, but I will say it doesn't take a majority.
 
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