GSX-R 600 vs 750 (bike weight and cornering question)

15654 Views 24 Replies 14 Participants Last post by jomama2323, 2 mo ago

BadPlatypus

Discussion Starter · May 23, 2012

So, I am a relatively new rider and am NOT planning on buying a powerful bike anytime soon.

That being said, I am trying to learn as much about sport bikes as I can, particularly in the way that they handle.

So basically my question is this: Is a 600 that much faster in the corners than a 750?

It appears that the 750 has considerably more power and weighs only 7 pounds more than the 600 (2012 GSX-R's).

Is there a reason a person would purchase a 600 over a 750 besides price?

Anymore info regarding bikes in this general direction would be appreciated and thanks in advance!

(FYI, please don't bother linking to the similarly titled thread about 750's and 600's, as it didn't really get into any detail about these kinds of things).

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UltimateOG

· #2 · May 23, 2012

Lets see, why would a person choose a gsxr 600 over a 750?

Best answer would be either realizing that the 750 is too much of a bike to move up to,

AND/OR

insurance is hella cheaper for the 600 than the 750.

BadPlatypus

Discussion Starter · #3 · May 23, 2012

So basically you are saying that the 7 pound weight difference means very little when cornering?

UltimateOG

· #4 · May 23, 2012

BadPlatypus said:
So basically you are saying that the 7 pound weight difference means very little when cornering?

7lbs on a bike can easily be made up for by an extra trip to McDonalds on behalf of the rider. And this is being serious, the difference really is with the rider and his/her abilities to control and manipulate the bike.

Reactions: 1

kevin_stevens

· #5 · May 23, 2012

BadPlatypus said:
So basically you are saying that the 7 pound weight difference means very little when cornering?

To an expert AMA or WERA racer it makes a significant difference.

To an intermediate trackday rider it might be discernable but make no practical difference.

To anybody on the street it is unnoticeable.

KeS

Reactions: 1

Tripped1

· #6 · May 23, 2012

kevin_stevens said:
To an expert AMA or WERA racer it makes a significant difference.

To an intermediate trackday rider it might be discernable but make no practical difference.

To anybody on the street it is unnoticeable.

KeS

:agree

BadPlatypus

Discussion Starter · #7 · May 23, 2012

Thanks very much for the responses guys!

This has helped me very much with beginning to understand the world of sport bikes.

Tripped1

· #8 · May 23, 2012

BadPlatypus said:
Thanks very much for the responses guys!

This has helped me very much with beginning to understand the world of sport bikes.

The question is a throwback to 15 years ago when there may have been a 45-50 pound difference between a 600-and a 900/1000, those days are over.

The bike will move differently because of the high reciprocating mass, but you have to be full tilt boogie to notice it....and if you can't go from knee down on one side to knee on the other in under a second (i.e. at a race pace) it really doesn't matter, you aren't swinging the bike on axis fast enough for the added weight to affect the chassis.

So yeah, light is good but there are always trade offs.

kevin_stevens

· #9 · May 23, 2012

BTW, time to pull out my soapbox.

Motorcycle handling differences are dramatically overstated and overrated.

*CAR* handling differences are dramatically overstated and overrated, and the typical aggressive car enthusiast can use much more of a car's handling capability than the typical aggressive motorcycle enthusiast.

I can take a new car, a set of sway bars, a set of premium street tires, an alignment rack, and a skidpad, and give you back a car cornering at better than .9G with whatever understeer/oversteer balance you want.

Similar with motorcycles. If you take any modern sport motorcycle - I'm defining a modern motorcycle as anything with at least 17 x 3" front and 17 x 4.5" rear wheels that isn't a TLR/TLS

- and set up the stock suspension for preload and rebound (which may mean spring replacement and fluid changes in the shock and forks) - I contend that you will have a bike that is suitable for all street purposes, and can be hustled around the track by an intermediate rider with complete safety and within a couple mph of the corner speeds of an SS 600cc bike. The capabilities are well beyond the ability of that typical rider to distinguish and take advantage of.

When riders talk about handling performance, generally they are really talking, in some way, of their comfort level and confidence with a particular bike. That is often because the particular stock setup of that bike happens to coincide with their preferences.

KeS

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Reactions: 1

UltimateOG

· #10 · May 23, 2012

kevin_stevens said:
BTW, time to pull out my soapbox.

Motorcycle handling differences are dramatically overstated and overrated.

*CAR* handling differences are dramatically overstated and overrated, and the typical aggressive car enthusiast can use much more of a car's handling capability than the typical aggressive motorcycle enthusiast.

I can take a new car, a set of sway bars, a set of premium street tires, an alignment rack, and a skidpad, and give you back a car cornering at better than .9G with whatever understeer/oversteer balance you want.

Similar with motorcycles. If you take any modern sport motorcycle - I'm defining a modern motorcycle as anything with at least 17 x 3" front and 17 x 4.5" rear wheels that isn't a TLR/TLS - and set up the stock suspension for preload and rebound (which may mean spring replacement and fluid changes in the shock and forks) - I contend that you will have a bike that is suitable for all street purposes, and can be hustled around the track by an intermediate rider with complete safety and within a couple mph of the corner speeds of an SS 600cc bike. The capabilities are well beyond the ability of that typical rider to distinguish and take advantage of.

When riders talk about handling performance, generally they are really talking, in some way, of their comfort level and confidence with a particular bike. That is often because the particular stock setup of that bike happens to coincide with their preferences.

KeS

This is why i like having KeS around, he makes sense out of complete sportbike nerd knowledge.

Reactions: 2

BadPlatypus

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 23, 2012

Interesting stuff.

I am looking forward to my first track day, hopefully I will be able to make it happen on Monday or Tuesday next week.

2001FZ1

· #12 · May 23, 2012

The only way the average rider is going to notice 7 lbs on bike is if it was a 7 pound wheel weight.

Reactions: 1

oic0

· #13 · May 23, 2012

2001FZ1 said:
The only way the average rider is going to notice 7 lbs on bike is if it was a 7 pound wheel weight.

Or 7lbs of crank, flywheel, or generator

But I doubt there is that much rotational mass difference between the bikes.

techres

· #14 · May 23, 2012

UltimateOG said:
7lbs on a bike can easily be made up for by an extra trip to McDonalds on behalf of the rider.

Ahhhh, but you miss the point. I bike (bicycle, that is) with a semi-dedicated group. One guy has been talking forever about how he could save almost 3 pounds by upgrading - at a cost of ~$3k. It's difficult to keep from pointing out that if he did away with ONE (1) of the 4-5 post-ride beers, he could shave more than 3 lbs off his gross weight while saving $200 per year.

The same argument is true about power - most riders, especially on the street, will never exploit the full potential of a 600cc bike, much less something b*****. What percentage of ZR-1 or AMG or M-class drivers ever fully wind it out? I'm betting tenths of a percent.

It's not about the logic, it's about the style - and the perception.

porky786

· #15 · May 23, 2012

BadPlatypus said:
So, So basically my question is this: Is a 600 that much faster in the corners than a 750?

It appears that the 750 has considerably more power and weighs only 7 pounds more than the 600 (2012 GSX-R's).

Is there a reason a person would purchase a 600 over a 750 besides price?

().

7 pounds, but there's also rotational Engine mass and how that effects cornering slightly longer wheel base, it usually can be felt to some degree. THe tighter and slower the corners are, the smaller bikes will have an edge, but on real fast tracks the larger motors will reign.

600 over a 750, 1000?

For the seasoned rider, the larger motor usually requires less Rpm for the same excursion, and possibly a slightly larger ergonomic, especially if you can't fit on a particular 600.

My first street bike was a GS650 , coming from a YZ125, If I could have done it over I would have gotten the 750, cause the 650 was awful Buzzy. Doesnt mean all smaller motors are, Just in that case.

acalliste

· #16 · May 24, 2012

My reasons for preferring one over the other make absolutely no sense at all, in either direction.

When I went out looking to buy a gsxr750, and the first dealer I went to didn't have the color I wanted, I bought a 600 instead because I liked how it looked a lot more than the 750 they had and it was less money.

Nearly 3 years later I traded the 600 for a 750 to get a shopping fix. And because I still wanted a 750, and they had one I liked enough to buy.

Overall I'm happier with the 750 than I was with the 600 (even though I did love the 600 and still miss it sometimes). Now that I have the 750, I never daydream about getting a liter the way I daydreamed about getting a 750 when I had the 600. But it doesn't have as much to do with performance as it has to do with I just always wanted a 750, like for 20 years before I got one. My lap times on the 600 were better than they are on the 750, yet I am still happier with it.

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sonicnofadz

· #17 · May 24, 2012 (Edited)

In terms of handling, there is little difference, except the rotating assembly of the 750 motor weighs more than the 600 which in effect creates slightly more gyroscopic force making the bike harder to change lean angles (especially when transitioning from a left turn to right turn or vice versa) than the lighter rotating assembly of a 600. Absolute corner speed will be about the same as the 600 (pull same amout of g's in the turn), but the 600 will flip side to side (easier to turn, not as much bar pressure required to change your lean angle). Like was mentioned before, a street rider will never notice the difference, but an experienced track day rider or racer will. Racers also cannot run 750's against 600s (750s get put into a different race class).

phail

· #18 · May 24, 2012 (Edited)

Most race tracks a 600 can lap damn near just as fast as a big bike. Big bikes are just more fun to ride.

Things are just easier on a 600.

And there's lots of places 750s run with 600s. Lots of tracks have horsepower limits not engine size restriction

BadPlatypus

Discussion Starter · #19 · May 24, 2012

Well this is all great info to take in.

I won't even bother with thinking about what to get a few months or a year down the road yet.

I am sure I'll have a much better idea of what I want/should get after I have run a bunch of track days.

SBGabe

· #20 · May 24, 2012

BadPlatypus said:
I am sure I'll have a much better idea of what I want/should get after I have run a bunch of track days.

For a track, I'd prefer a 600. Once you open them up, they are a beast. The real advantage of a 750/1000 is not that it's faster, but that it has ample torque at lower RPMs as well. So, for the street, they may suit you better, as long as you can resist opening up the throttle. On the other hand, too much power can scare you, and be a disadvantage accelerating out of a turn.

I mean, when do you ever ride a sports bike in its power band in traffic? Even on a 600, you'd have to be above any speed limit, unless you stay in first gear the whole time. Once you open up ANY sports bike, the limiting factor is going to be your skill/fear...

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