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NO LAG !!!
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1,255 Posts
Water Wetter ftw... when freezing temps are not a threat. Distilled H2O and Redline water wetter makes a bike run cooler. Engine Ice is highly overated especially when you live in the Sunbelt. Engine Ice is better when you live in freezing temps.
 

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3,717 Posts
Guess I'll have to go with the Wetter, local track doesn't allow Engine Ice or glycol obviously. Some of the local guys at the race shop I've overheard would prefer Engine Ice were it allowed.

I'll just dump it in the fall and go back to regular coolant for when temps go back down again.
 

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Premium Member
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i pee in my bike.....:D
 

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Venomous Duck
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Isn't engine ice not allowed by most track day and race orgs? I know only one of them is permitted. Anyways...I use water wetter in both of my bikes.
 

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the joke is in your hand
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8,594 Posts

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Premium Member
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601 Posts
Vodka.........................

My bike is so happy that way..................:beer:cheers:banana
 

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Roadracer since '96
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1,911 Posts
I realize it's not the question at hand, but if it's allowed where your at a huge +1 on the Evans NPG (Non-aqueous Propylene Glycol - not Ethylene Glycol which is really slippery).

I've used Evans NPG ever since I had the straight water in my 1st race bike freeze and popped the freeze plugs in the head. Water based coolants are really old school compared to NPG, I think it would even be fair to say that NPG is in a league of it's own.

If you want to get an eduction as to why Evans NPG is so good just read the technical section on their website and see why everything from Diesel Semi fleets to Dragsters use it. After 8 years of using it I have nothing but good to say about the stuff. :)
 

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Silent pipes take lives
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12,981 Posts
neither...there is a much better product on the market.

a few reasons why,
1. needs no water
2. does not freeze
3. never needs changed again
4. works without pressure in the system(no other coolant can do this), this means if your system fails and you don't know it, your engine will not over heat.

Evans Cooling Systems, Inc. High Performance Engine Cooling and Power Production.

I can't trust any product with uses blatant lies to hype itself. Does not freeze? BS. All chemicals can freeze.

Works without pressure? If you heat a fluid, pressure will build.

Engine won't overheat if the cooling system fails? False. If you have no flow because the pump failed, then the coolant won't carry the heat to the radiator, which means the heat won't be released to the air. Result? Overheating. If the cooling system fails because you spring a leak, and your cooland dumps out, then how is it supposed to carry the heat to the radiator? Again, the result is overheating.

They also say "By bathing the entire combustion chamber with coolant 100% of the time, metal temperatures are controlled to such an extent that critical levels of detonation and pre-ignition are never reached." If you're bathing your combustion chamber with coolant, then something is seriously wrong. Coolant should never enter the combustion chamber.

I'm not saying it's without merit, but manufacturers don't use it for a reason.

Some research:

March 1993
Cummins Diesel Engines and ARCO Chemical joint test program, SAE Paper 930584. File No: D-41

Purpose:

Four different engine tests were run utilizing NPG to examine durability of the coolant and engine performance. The protocol of the testing was done without any expertise in the use of NPG coolants. Evans was not involved in any way with the testing. Thus performance improvements such as fuel efficiency, power and emissions were not realized. This points out the difficulties of an OEM, not trained in the total NPG system design, coming to improper conclusions.

Results:

Within the limits of the test the following benefits to NPG were verified:
1) Extremely good system corrosion protection.
2) Extremely good cylinder liner cavitation protection.
3) Provides greater margin of boil-over and vapor blanketing protection.
4) Eliminates cavitation damage in the pump.
5) Cooling system maintenance and chemical addition should be greatly simplified.

Some drawbacks were noticed:
1) Nitrile rubber was observed to have increased swell, but was still functional.
2) Some of the gasket and seal materials were hardened, indicating the need for more robust materials when using elevated coolant temperatures.

Comments: There are some conclusions which are contrary to testing done at numerous locations under the guidance of Evans. They are:
1) Larger radiators and oil coolers are needed to compensate for reduced convective heat transfer predicted by its physical properties. Actually this can be corrected with increased flow.
2) Engine efficiency and emissions are not changed with increased coolant temperature. Evans has data which contradicts this assumption. We suspect that the engines were tested improperly on a dynamometer and not in a properly balanced system. In addition this engine used slower than conventional flow rates which is opposite to what NPG cooling requires.
September 1993
Two 5.2 Liter V-8 ZJ Jeeps Converted to NPG. File No: D-44

Purpose:

Under a development program with Chrysler Jeep and Truck Division, Evans converted two ZJ 5.2 Liter engine Jeeps to NPG. Theoretical assumptions were used to change the coolant flow (up 20%), replace the radiator with a high flow radiator, and change the head gasket for better flow. Programming costing did not allow for maximizing any of the above. Additional changes were: mechanical to electric fan; high flow proportioning thermostat, zero pressure vent and blocking of the OEM by-pass. Under road operation and EPA testing, coolant temperatures were essentially the same as baseline. No changes were made to the engine control settings. Evans NPG formulation was used.

Results:

Significant fuel efficiency improvements were verified; emissions were lowered; power increased even at high tested coolant temperatures (observed in Baker grade test); with NPG cooling and higher temperature tolerance the electric fan was sufficient to cool the engine, no need for noisy mechanical fan. During the Baker grade test only the oil temperatures were higher than specification (no oil cooler was used). Slight modifications were made to the head gaskets to redistribute the flow in the engine and the vehicles were re-tested. The oil temperature problems were improved without the use of an oil cooler. These vehicles are still under test as of mid-1996. One has 80,000 miles and one 40,000. Coolant analysis has been performed at various points in the program with coolant specifications and engine metals within limits. All specific data is confidential to Chrysler.
 

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the joke is in your hand
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8,594 Posts
I can't trust any product with uses blatant lies to hype itself. Does not freeze? BS. All chemicals can freeze.

Works without pressure? If you heat a fluid, pressure will build.

Engine won't overheat if the cooling system fails? False. If you have no flow because the pump failed, then the coolant won't carry the heat to the radiator, which means the heat won't be released to the air. Result? Overheating. If the cooling system fails because you spring a leak, and your cooland dumps out, then how is it supposed to carry the heat to the radiator? Again, the result is overheating.

They also say "By bathing the entire combustion chamber with coolant 100% of the time, metal temperatures are controlled to such an extent that critical levels of detonation and pre-ignition are never reached." If you're bathing your combustion chamber with coolant, then something is seriously wrong. Coolant should never enter the combustion chamber.

I'm not saying it's without merit, but manufacturers don't use it for a reason.

Some research:
first of all you are saying I said if the water pump failed your engine wouldn't over heat. that is NOT what I said.
I said "if the system fails your engine wont over heat". meaning if there was a sudden loss of Pressure. the water pump does not build the pressure in your system. the heat does. evans coolant works in a non pressure system. the pressure in a normal system keeps your coolant from boiling. yes, your normal coolant has to have pressure in the system to keep from boiling. and water pumps don't fail unless it breaks the shaft. and that aint happening unless you crash the bike and bust the cover and shove it into the impeller.
and not everything can freeze in a normal earth climate where you will be riding your bike or driving your car.
you are not going to be experencing deep space temps here on earth my friend. and why is it you believe you know more about the product than the company that makes it? maybe it freezes at 400 below. are you riding a bike in 400 below?

and you obviously have no clue about where water flows in a engine. the entire cylinder is surrounded by a jacket of water. and so is the heads. the combustion chamber by the way is in the cylinder head.


manufactures don't use it because it's $30 a gallon.
 

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Roadracer since '96
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1,911 Posts
A great way to clarify what's happening inside the cooling jacket of an engine is by comparing it with an ordinary house window. A solid pane of glass does not work very well at stopping thermal transfer from one side of the glass to the other, on a day where it's -20F outside you wouldn't even have to touch the glass to feel the cold being transfered into the house. At the opposite extreme is a triple-pane window with trapped air or gas between the panes, that trapped air acts as insulation because air is NOT a very good thermal transmitter and effectively creates 2 buffer zones between the inside of the house and the exterior pane of glass which is being subjected to the -20F temp's outside.

Comparing that to the inside of your cooling system: coolant that actually contacts the metal surfaces of the cooling system would represent a single pane window, good thermal transfer of the heat in the metal to the coolant and then from the coolant back to the metal in the radiator. The problem's start when the coolant begins to encounter localized boiling on the hottest metal surfaces inside the cooling system (around the cylinders and in the head), this creates a localized steam layer on the hottest metal surfaces which can be compared to the triple-pane window in my example (the steam acts like the air trapped between the layers of glass except in an engine its trapped between the metal and the coolant). That steam layer covering the hottest metal surfaces creates a buffer between the metal and the actual coolant, since steam is a poor thermal transmitter it acts as insulation around the hottest metal surfaces and the coolant is not able to effectively transfer heat away from the metal in those hottest areas. Instead what happens is the coolant that remains in contact with the metal which is further away from the hottest metal surfaces has to do all the cooling, this scenario results in the ever popular technical catch phrase of 'localized hot spots in your engine' and can even lead to pinging or detonation.

Water's weakness as a thermal transmitter is it's boiling point, so companies have gone several different routes to try and raise it's boiling point. The most popular one is to create a closed cooling system which will pressurize as the water get's hotter, that pressure will help to restrict the water's ability to boil a little longer - but creating cooling system pressure comes at a price, pressure is constantly looking for any potential way to escape and can lead to holes in gaskets, radiators, hoses, etc. Further more Ethylene Glycol (typical anti-freeze) has been added to the mix to increase the boiling point of water a little bit more and act as an anti-freeze down to a certain point if mixed properly. Even with these additions water based coolants are still prone to localized steam layers (which as I already said) act as an insulator against cooling the hottest spots in your engine.

Evans NPG has a boiling point of 369*F (that's with no cooling system pressure at all) and a freezing point of -79*F, what this means to an engine is that localized steam layers in the cooling system (or vapor blanketing as they call it in the articles you posted) will be much smaller (if existent at all). By allowing the coolant to stay in full contact with the hottest metal surfaces up to higher temperatures NPG not only cools more effectively, but keeps the engine cooler for longer in extreme situations - in other words it will take longer for a steam layer to form and if it does form it will disappear sooner. On top of all that NPG has a higher thermal transference ability than water based coolants, which means it's ability to transfer temperature away from the engine block, to the coolant, then back to the metal in the radiator is higher than water based coolants. Evans actually suggests running a non-pressurized cooling system (or very low pressure radiator cap) when using NPG, this results in minimal or even no pressure being exerted by the cooling system on all the various gaskets, seals, hoses, and mating surfaces that the coolant travels thru.

I'm not sponsored in any way by Evans, I had to purchase NPG just like anyone else (and I haven't seen any racing contingency money available either). This is one of those products where I've personally witnessed it's obvious benefits, from not having to remove it in the winter to not even using a cooling fan on my race bikes - this stuff has not only worked, but worked well! I don't know how many times I've watched other bikes boil over on the starting grid while waiting for the start of a race or immediately after a race when they shut their bikes off (which my 1st race bike did on hot days because it had a water based coolant in a pressurized cooling system). Neither one of my bikes that I've used NPG in the cooling system have ever boiled over in the 10,000+ race-only miles they've experienced, you also don't hear my bike hissing and popping after a race like alot of the other racers bikes do.

I have great respect for products that stand out above and beyond the average 'norm', this is one of the rare ones that I personally recommend to everyone I talk to about racing. :)
 

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I could use it in my street bike's radiator, but the local race club only allows Water Wetter. So that's what I use.
 

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neither...there is a much better product on the market.

a few reasons why,
1. needs no water
2. does not freeze
3. never needs changed again
4. works without pressure in the system(no other coolant can do this), this means if your system fails and you don't know it, your engine will not over heat.

Evans Cooling Systems, Inc. High Performance Engine Cooling and Power Production.
I would not use Evans in a motorcycle because it instantly gains temperature and takes a long time to cool back down my bike went up to 250 degrees at a red light would definitely not use Evans
 
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