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After Me Lucky Charms
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:eek:nfloor :treehug

They BARELY made 100mph avg on IOM TT, for 1 lap. Current IC bikes are doing 130mph avg, for 2 laps.

THEN, I can see pitstops...
 

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It's good that the electric bike companies are using racing as a platform to gain exposure, comparing them directly to ICE bikes is missing the point completely. We Americans are spooned by our dirt cheap gas (still). The real opportunity for electric is shorter range in-town commuting in countries where gas is $8/gal., something most sport bike enthusiasts don't care about.
 

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After Me Lucky Charms
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I really think you should watch the documentary called "Charge" the Electric Bike at Isle of Man TT Documentary. The English saying the electrics were boring, they wanted to smell the exhaust, feel the ground pound, etc. They didn't even want them there, and even called them "appliances". It's on Netflix.

That coming from Englishmen whom gas IS $8/gal.

"Charge" Movie Review: When Electrics Invaded the Isle of Man TT
 

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First of all, the amazing thing about the Isle of Man TT is the rider skill, it has nothing to do with whatever bike they happen to be on, whether it be electric or ice.

Second of all, electric bikes are wicked cool


All this indignation about electric bikes I see being "appliances" could probably be applied to the same arguments used by people who preferred horse and carriage over automobiles. Hey, some people just loved the smell of horse dung too.
 

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Mexican Hard Shell Taco
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It's good that the electric bike companies are using racing as a platform to gain exposure, comparing them directly to ICE bikes is missing the point completely. We Americans are spooned by our dirt cheap gas (still). The real opportunity for electric is shorter range in-town commuting in countries where gas is $8/gal., something most sport bike enthusiasts don't care about.
Missing the point? I want to have fun, and even the shortest weekend fun rides on my GSX-R will involve at least one fuel stop. With the current range offered by electric motorcycles I wouldn't be able to get to the place we have breakfast on short, quick, weekend rides when my married friends have to get back home early. Heck, I'd be stranded, with no charge, far from home and I'd have to wait at least 8 hours for the bike to charge and "try" to get home, maybe temperature, traffic and other variables will make me use more power and fail short of getting home.

For the price of this:

Energica Ego Electric Superbike Now Coming in 2015

I'd be able to get a S1000RR HP4, which is lighter, has more power, more range and it is easily refueled in less than 10 minutes to get me back home.

What about longer (500+ mile) weekend rides?

Sorry, but current battery technology is just not there.
 
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After Me Lucky Charms
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First of all, the amazing thing about the Isle of Man TT is the rider skill, it has nothing to do with whatever bike they happen to be on, whether it be electric or ice.

Second of all, electric bikes are wicked cool

Mission RS Electric Motorcycle at New York Safety Track (NYST) - YouTube

All this indignation about electric bikes I see being "appliances" could probably be applied to the same arguments used by people who preferred horse and carriage over automobiles. Hey, some people just loved the smell of horse dung too.
Really? So you are saying that an electric bike that can ONLY make 1 lap, and can only average 100mph, is going to win against ice engines, who can make 2 laps, and average 130mph...??? Let's not forget pit stops. How long will an electric pitstop be?

Your video was boring, btw. It had speed, but it has no soul, no character. Just like a robot. ;)

That is the entire point of the thread. An electric bike is going to contend against ice bikes. Not a chance. Because of the 130mph avg, AND 6 laps. When the locals don't even like it, it won't last.
 

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A guy on a scruffy bike
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It's good that the electric bike companies are using racing as a platform to gain exposure, comparing them directly to ICE bikes is missing the point completely. We Americans are spooned by our dirt cheap gas (still). The real opportunity for electric is shorter range in-town commuting in countries where gas is $8/gal., something most sport bike enthusiasts don't care about.
Gas in America isn't "dirt cheap". It's about 50% over market value due to taxes. It only looks cheap to people from places where it's 300% over market value due to taxes.

Meanwhile, electric vehicles can be useful under limited conditions, but not for general usage. An example: we are renting an extra room right now to a woamn who is in NH for a few months. She's from NV, and owns an electric car, but she had to rent a real car here, because there was no good way to get the car she owns here. She would have had to spend several hundred bucks having it shipped, and sent it a few weeks ahead of time thus not having it at home for a while before leaving. Or it would have taken about 3 weeks to drive it here.

Not ready for prime time. And the limitation is inherent, as long as batteries are the method of energy storage.

PhilB
 

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Mexican Hard Shell Taco
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I'm fascinated by internal combustion engines, machines finely tuned to keep them from destroying themselves, fire, explosions, noise... There is something primal about them! Controlling that loud machine that vibrates, generates heat, it's like taming a wild animal.

But just imagine the possibilities of electric motorcycles. Less moving parts, less rotational mass, less inertia from the moving parts. Clutch and slipper clutches? Puhlease, ancient, not needed anymore. The precision attainable for traction control systems would have robotic precision, completely impossible when you're dealing with so much inertia from moving parts, fluid dynamics, etc. No need to retard ignition timing, close the butterflies on the throttle bodies, the ECU would be able to reduce or apply, instantly, as much power as needed.

Powerbands, what is that? Instant torque, gobs of torque down low which magically transforms in lots of hp as the motor spins. That is just impossible with ICEs. Imagine that, big bore low RPM torque with screamer engine HP at high RPMs.

It would basically solve many age old problems. But the energy density, and charging speed, of current battery technology is just not there. What would be the point of such an amazing bike if I can't even get to the twisties to enjoy it?
 

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Really? So you are saying that an electric bike that can ONLY make 1 lap, and can only average 100mph, is going to win against ice engines, who can make 2 laps, and average 130mph...??? Let's not forget pit stops. How long will an electric pitstop be?

Your video was boring, btw. It had speed, but it has no soul, no character. Just like a robot. ;)

That is the entire point of the thread. An electric bike is going to contend against ice bikes. Not a chance. Because of the 130mph avg, AND 6 laps. When the locals don't even like it, it won't last.
I never said electric bikes are currently competitive with ice bikes, I said they were cool, and it still takes a boat load of skill to average 110 MPH around the isle of man.

Harshly judging electric bikes is pointless, they are still early in their development. It's like taking a pre-Model T car and complaining it isn't as fast as the quickest thoroughbred race horse. Electric bikes will catch up to development of current ice bikes and there will be a point where there is zero advantage to those crusty old combustion engines besides nostalgia.

Minor factoid, but the 2013 electric bikes lap times would be competitive with the fastest bikes at the 1976 Isle Of Man TT - and that is with a fraction of the development history as those ice bikes.

Also I could make the same "no soul" argument about a car versus a horse. The difference is the argument makes more sense when comparing a living creature versus a mechanical machine. Electric bikes have their own "character", just like ice bikes. The Mission RS for me is a soul stirring machine.
 

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Gas in America isn't "dirt cheap". It's about 50% over market value due to taxes. It only looks cheap to people from places where it's 300% over market value due to taxes.

Meanwhile, electric vehicles can be useful under limited conditions, but not for general usage. An example: we are renting an extra room right now to a woamn who is in NH for a few months. She's from NV, and owns an electric car, but she had to rent a real car here, because there was no good way to get the car she owns here. She would have had to spend several hundred bucks having it shipped, and sent it a few weeks ahead of time thus not having it at home for a while before leaving. Or it would have taken about 3 weeks to drive it here.

Not ready for prime time. And the limitation is inherent, as long as batteries are the method of energy storage.

PhilB
I don't see how any of that changes the fact that we pay a fraction the price for gasoline that countries with comparable living standards (does it matter why if we can't change it?), nor does your example of a person temporarily living thousands of miles from home constitute "general use". Obviously she guessed she'd spend less on gas and rental than she would on shipping her car two ways.
 

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I don't see how any of that changes the fact that we pay a fraction the price for gasoline that countries with comparable living standards (does it matter why if we can't change it?), nor does your example of a person temporarily living thousands of miles from home constitute "general use". Obviously she guessed she'd spend less on gas and rental than she would on shipping her car two ways.
Even if it did constitute "general use" - you can rent a car from Budget for 2 solid months for about 1000 dollars, that is on the off chance you will be traveling to some place for multiple months at a time and need a car. The difference between that and spending all the money on gas, the depriciation, and wear and tear on your personal vehicle driving it 5000+ miles is likely negligible.

Clearly there are enough car services out there where these edge cases of car use are a non factor with respect to electric car ownership. Even if you had a gas car it makes a lot of financial sense to rent instead of drive.
 

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A guy on a scruffy bike
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... Electric bikes will catch up to development of current ice bikes and there will be a point where there is zero advantage to those crusty old combustion engines besides nostalgia. ...
That will happen when the energy storage problem is solved -- meaning something other than batteries -- and not before. Same with electric cars; everything about them is equal to or better than ICE, except that they have a 1500lb gas tank that holds 2 gallons of gas and has to be filled with an eyedropper. The most modern lithium battery cars like the Tesla or Fisker manage to spend tens of thousands of dollars to upgrade that to a 750lb gas tank that holds 5 gallons of gas -- an order of magnitude better than before, but still more than an order of magnitude short of normal fuels.

I don't see how any of that changes the fact that we pay a fraction the price for gasoline that countries with comparable living standards (does it matter why if we can't change it?), nor does your example of a person temporarily living thousands of miles from home constitute "general use". Obviously she guessed she'd spend less on gas and rental than she would on shipping her car two ways.
It doesn't change the fact of the comparative cost, other than educating people about the reality of the situation (that the high cost is mostly government, not oil companies). This knowledge does open up the possibility that it CAN be changed -- if the cost was pure supply and demand, then there would be very little in the way of good ways to reduce it, but since the problem is taxation policy, that means it would be possible for people in any given country to change it if they got active about it.

My example is only one example, but is a good example of how an electric car is less functional than an ICE car. The number of people who use their cars at least occasionally to travel farther than the range of an electric car is very large. This means that the electric car, for those people, must be an additional purchase, not a full substitute. This is the exact same reason why most people won't actually save money by getting a motorcycle to commute on -- it's an additional expense unless they actually get rid of the car and go bike-only, which most people can't/won't do.

And when I gave my example, I explained WHY getting the electric car out here was not a good option for her -- it wasn't just the money; it was impractical in terms of time and inconvenience. She and her husband are planning to move out here eventually, and I expect they will ship her car out at that time. But for this trip, the vehicle she already owns was not functionally capable of meeting her needs. And that's a minus for such a vehicle.

Even if it did constitute "general use" - you can rent a car from Budget for 2 solid months for about 1000 dollars, that is on the off chance you will be traveling to some place for multiple months at a time and need a car. The difference between that and spending all the money on gas, the depriciation, and wear and tear on your personal vehicle driving it 5000+ miles is likely negligible.

Clearly there are enough car services out there where these edge cases of car use are a non factor with respect to electric car ownership. Even if you had a gas car it makes a lot of financial sense to rent instead of drive.
Right. Which is why everyone knows owning a car is silly in the first place, and most people rent them instead. :rolleyes

PhilB
 

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Right. Which is why everyone knows owning a car is silly in the first place, and most people rent them instead. :rolleyes
Well I never said owning a car outright was silly, only that you can own an electric car as your primary vehicle and still fill in the gaps of functionality here and there if there are limitations. If you happen to travel 3000 miles away from home for 2 months once in a blue moon, renting a car doesn't seem absurd for the purpose. Like I said, even if you own an ICE car, it could make a lot of sense to simply rent a car at your destination.
 

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It doesn't change the fact of the comparative cost, other than educating people about the reality of the situation (that the high cost is mostly government, not oil companies). This knowledge does open up the possibility that it CAN be changed -- if the cost was pure supply and demand, then there would be very little in the way of good ways to reduce it, but since the problem is taxation policy, that means it would be possible for people in any given country to change it if they got active about it.
Again, it doesn't matter why it's more expensive and it won't get cheaper. There's no reason for it to and at the rate the US taxes it now, there's still massive shortfalls in the transportation budget (unless collapsing bridges is acceptable). As they say, "there are no free lunches". Call it the trucking subsidy.

Even so, you say your renter may eventually move here and bring the e-car out. That speaks volumes about its value. Even I'd many people need gas cars (I do), that doesn't mean that an electric car or bike wouldn't work for just as many. Look at the way people use personal transportation in Western Europe, where many live in the cities they work in and the rail system can cover their occasional long distance needs.
 

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A guy on a scruffy bike
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Well I never said owning a car outright was silly, only that you can own an electric car as your primary vehicle and still fill in the gaps of functionality here and there if there are limitations. If you happen to travel 3000 miles away from home for 2 months once in a blue moon, renting a car doesn't seem absurd for the purpose. Like I said, even if you own an ICE car, it could make a lot of sense to simply rent a car at your destination.
I'm saying that until electric cars/bikes have a shitload more range, the number of people in America for whom they will be practical will be very much a minority.

Again, it doesn't matter why it's more expensive and it won't get cheaper. There's no reason for it to and at the rate the US taxes it now, there's still massive shortfalls in the transportation budget (unless collapsing bridges is acceptable). As they say, "there are no free lunches". Call it the trucking subsidy.

Even so, you say your renter may eventually move here and bring the e-car out. That speaks volumes about its value. Even I'd many people need gas cars (I do), that doesn't mean that an electric car or bike wouldn't work for just as many. Look at the way people use personal transportation in Western Europe, where many live in the cities they work in and the rail system can cover their occasional long distance needs.
Western Europe is laid out very differently than most of America is. There are a lot more people in a significantly smaller area, so everything is a lot closer together. The percentage of people in America for whom that is a practical reality is much smaller.

Anyway, whatever, y'all can deny reality all you like. You'll be proven right when electric cars become a significant fraction of the American auto market. I ain't gonna hold my breath.

PhilB
 

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sure you can build your life around having an electric car, and use stop gaps where it won't work. (this is a huge achievment, it took incretable effort, and those that managed to get the electric car this far deserve to be rewarded for their efforts.)

you can also build your life around haveing a motorcycle as you vehical, and use stop gaps where it won't work.

or you can build your life around public transport, and use stop gaps where it won't work. (at least some people in big cities could)

but with a cheap, boring, pos, internal combustion car you can just use it, don't need to adapt your house's electricity, no fuss, no planning your route around charging stations, no bother, no hassle, it just works.

I use Ubuntu 12.4, (a linux distrobution), as the operating system on my computer. Because its free, i like the idea of open source, it does word processing just fine, i can watch movies and stuff, and i can browse the internet. which is most of what i do on my computer, the few times i absolutly need to use a windows machine, i go to a public libary and use theirs.

but i don't mind people who use windows, because they need it for work, it came on thier computer, they think linux will be to hard to learn, whatever. i accept that i am the outside case, that i adapted my life so that i could use Ubuntu, and that not every one is willing to.
 

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I'm saying that until electric cars/bikes have a shitload more range, the number of people in America for whom they will be practical will be very much a minority.

Western Europe is laid out very differently than most of America is. There are a lot more people in a significantly smaller area, so everything is a lot closer together. The percentage of people in America for whom that is a practical reality is much smaller.
I disagree. Most of the large US population centers are very much like those in Europe (80% live in urban areas).

The only real obstacle for electric right now is price. If the Nissan Leaf cost within 10% of what a comparable ICE car did they would sell millions of them. They are practical for many now, just too expensive and too few choices.
 
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