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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In my boy's research, he says a car can take turns faster than bikes therefore, they'll be faster on canyons.

I'm not sure that I believe it.

For instance, we went for a canyon run today. (pretty intense canyon) Me on my GSXR 600 and the same friend and another one in a car (4 door sports sedan, manual trans, front wheel drive, Volkswagen something). They were supposed to follow behind and take a cool vid of me but I left them in the dust in a few seconds we started. Given it was a very steep start and he failed to put it in 1st gear and 2nd gear just didn't have the power to keep up. He also skid on one of the turns.

I'm not saying I'm a bomb rider and I'm sure he is a decent driver because I know he's gone on many canyon runs on his car but I think bikes being able to lean to control from sliding off gives us an advantage. Not to mention acceleration. I know it will make a big difference on what car and also the driver and the rider's skills.

SO, lets hear it. What do you all think? 4 wheels or 2 wheels?

And any personal stories you have going against cars, SHARE!
:horse:horse
 

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A car has more traction because of the larger contact are of the tires. When your turning on your bike you are only using the shoulders of your tire, in a car, the tires stay level so they offer a tremendous more amount of grip. Your buddys car probably isn't the best handling car first off and second, probably doesn't have quality sticky rubber like you should on your bike. If you need proof go compare F1 and MotoGP times.
 

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In my boy's research, he says a car can take turns faster than bikes therefore, they'll be faster on canyons.
That is a false syllogism.

Virtually all street racing other than a straight drag comes down to the skill and willingness to accept risk of the participants.

I personally am a much better driver than a rider, and I am significantly faster on Palomar mountain in a sports car than on a bike. I also am significantly faster than many other bike riders in a sports car. And there are some bike riders who are significantly faster than I am piloting either a car or a bike. But I don't think there are many car drivers significantly faster than me in a car. ;)

KeS
 

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In theory yes. The disparity comes with the fact that The car would have to be pretty well sorted to compete with a bike that is basically a purpose built race machine. Was your buddies vw commuter built with the intent to win races? Unless you're comparing two vehicle built for the same purpose its kinda apples and oranges.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I see all of your points, my little fun run may not prove anything but u can also find clips on youtube of bikes running from cops(built and trained to chase) on canyons and getting away.

Another theory can be the best car on canyons vs best bike on canyons, driver and rider both great skills. Will it be a close race? Will the car win by far??


Sent from my iPhone using MO Free
 

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In a local car magazine a columnist claims exactly that there is a couple exceptions there has to be no straights whatsoever however it can be pretty much any car.

Although his research was based on following a BMW R80 down a road.

There is a few caveats it has to be him driving after been an advanced driving instructor for many years he now resides in Italy his occupation? Test driver for the likes of Lamborghini Audi etc he was driving around in the Aventador 12months before it was released. He can steer!

He is also about to buy a bike because he was never allowed one when he was younger.
 

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Are you sure the VW just didn't break down?

Seriously, it's all about acceleration. All things being quality, a car should be faster mid-corner than a bike. But mid-corner is a very limited portion of any section of asphalt.

Second, having a car try to follow a bike through twisties with a video camera is foolish on a good day. Buy a go pro and do a track day.

That said, at Summit Point in August cars and bikes raced on the same track, same weekend. The best car time I found poking around was 1:10. The best bike time I found was 1:14. That was in a Formula race car.
 

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The problem is that your buddy was driving a FWD VW.

Cars have more grip in the corners than bikes... bikes are limited to about 1g of lateral acceleration. Most road cars can't achieve that, though- you'd have to have a modified suspension and sticky tires.

Think about it, though- most car tires last about 25-30k miles. Sport ones, at least. Bike tires last, what? 10k at most? They are SIGNIFICANTLY stickier.

So you put a set of autocross or trackday tires on a car, have about 350whp or more, and sort the suspension (and have something rwd or awd), and the bike A)won't be able to brake anywhere near as well and B) won't be able to keep the same speed in the corners.

So when there are lots of long straights, the bike will pull ahead slightly, but in the corners the car WILL be faster. But it has to be a fairly high-end car. Not just an off the shelf "sports sedan".


Basically, the answer is that it depends on a LOT of factors. But yeah, a car, sorted well enough, with a good enough driver, should be faster than a bike.
 
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Given equally sticky tires a car can be faster than a bike. Most cars would still be walked away from on the straights but they can brake deeper into the corners and maintain higher cornering speeds.

However, most cars have crap for tires.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The problem is that your buddy was driving a FWD VW.

Cars have more grip in the corners than bikes... bikes are limited to about 1g of lateral acceleration. Most road cars can't achieve that, though- you'd have to have a modified suspension and sticky tires.

Think about it, though- most car tires last about 25-30k miles. Sport ones, at least. Bike tires last, what? 10k at most? They are SIGNIFICANTLY stickier.

So you put a set of autocross or trackday tires on a car, have about 350whp or more, and sort the suspension (and have something rwd or awd), and the bike A)won't be able to brake anywhere near as well and B) won't be able to keep the same speed in the corners.

So when there are lots of long straights, the bike will pull ahead slightly, but in the corners the car WILL be faster. But it has to be a fairly high-end car. Not just an off the shelf "sports sedan".


Basically, the answer is that it depends on a LOT of factors. But yeah, a car, sorted well enough, with a good enough driver, should be faster than a bike.
Damn I think you sum'ed it up nicely. But I think what I'm hearing in general is that, while the right car with the right set up can take a bike, it won't be by much, and MOST cars can't keep up if they don't at least have RWD, performance tires, and lots of horses.

Agreed?:woot

It may have more traction but it's also 10x(more or less?) weight to swing around as well. It's funny now to think about how we own and ride something that's compared to formula race cars. Who drives formula race car around town just going to work? :lol
 

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I just ran the Dragon in a Chevy Silverado 1500 dual cab rental truck.

I chased down anything in front of me, and nobody caught me all weekend, cars or bikes, including a 2 hour trip into Georgia on 28. The truck sucked.


It's much more about the driver/rider, much more than the vehicle. When I'm on a bike, I blow past any car I find on that road, the only competition I had was my buddy in a prepped Miata that he races. I think I could have taken him
 

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Cars tend to brake better in addition to the superior mid-corner performance. If the car also generates some downforce, the advantages are multiplied. Put in the fear factor of being on two wheels and most car vs bike comparisons show the car winning. The research is correct.

That said, the Top Gear guys had an S1000RR at their track and its time was faster than all cars they had ever tested, with the exception of the Ariel Atom V8 with downforce. So the one most exceptional superbike of the day bike beat everything except the one most aggressive of road cars...in controlled circumstances. No sand, no traffic, several attempts.

- John
 

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A car has more traction because of the larger contact are of the tires. When your turning on your bike you are only using the shoulders of your tire, in a car, the tires stay level so they offer a tremendous more amount of grip. Your buddys car probably isn't the best handling car first off and second, probably doesn't have quality sticky rubber like you should on your bike. If you need proof go compare F1 and MotoGP times.
Poor comparison - the downforce on an F1 car allows (and requires) drastically higher corner speeds.

Proper comparison would be a dedicated track day car...say the non-V8 powered Atom that has a very high power to weight ratio but without the F1 aero.
 

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The two vehicles have relative advantages:

Generally speaking, the bike will have a horsepower/weight advantage. A motorcycle is basically an engine and two wheels. Cars have drive shafts, suspension components, body work, glass, a bunch of wheels, heating and cooling systems, door latches, etc.

A car can put many more inches of rubber on the pavement per pound of vehicle weight.

Cars have a huge aerodynamic advantage. The short course is that if you want a ground vehicle with low drag you want something low, wide, and long. Motorcycles are tall, narrow, and short. If you wanted to design a vehicle with max aero drag you’d end with either an outhouse on wheels or a motorcycle.

The bike has the considerable advantage of being able to alter its center of gravity by the rider moving around on the chassis.

Car suspension works just fine in a turn. When a bike is leaned in a turn it really doesn’t have any suspension other than lateral chassis flex.

The bike’s biggest advantage is its much smaller footprint; allowing it to use much better lines while remaining on the pavement. Put a different way, the bike gets to run on a much wider road. To see this draw a top-down view section of track consisting of an esses of two right angle opposite turns. Now, take a toy car, run it through the turns, and notice the radical angular changes it must make to make it through the turns while remaining on the pavement. Now, repeat this with a toy motorcycle of the same scale and notice how much straighter the vehicle can go through the turns; using much less angular change. (Assuming there are no buildings, trees, fire hydrants, or old ladies right on the edge of the pavement the rider might run his face into when he leans the bike.)

So which is faster on a road course? Depends on the course.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The two vehicles have relative advantages:

Generally speaking, the bike will have a horsepower/weight advantage. A motorcycle is basically an engine and two wheels. Cars have drive shafts, suspension components, body work, glass, a bunch of wheels, heating and cooling systems, door latches, etc.

A car can put many more inches of rubber on the pavement per pound of vehicle weight.

Cars have a huge aerodynamic advantage. The short course is that if you want a ground vehicle with low drag you want something low, wide, and long. Motorcycles are tall, narrow, and short. If you wanted to design a vehicle with max aero drag you’d end with either an outhouse on wheels or a motorcycle.

The bike has the considerable advantage of being able to alter its center of gravity by the rider moving around on the chassis.

Car suspension works just fine in a turn. When a bike is leaned in a turn it really doesn’t have any suspension other than lateral chassis flex.

The bike’s biggest advantage is its much smaller footprint; allowing it to use much better lines while remaining on the pavement. Put a different way, the bike gets to run on a much wider road. To see this draw a top-down view section of track consisting of an esses of two right angle opposite turns. Now, take a toy car, run it through the turns, and notice the radical angular changes it must make to make it through the turns while remaining on the pavement. Now, repeat this with a toy motorcycle of the same scale and notice how much straighter the vehicle can go through the turns; using much less angular change. (Assuming there are no buildings, trees, fire hydrants, or old ladies right on the edge of the pavement the rider might run his face into when he leans the bike.)

So which is faster on a road course? Depends on the course.
Great post! So if a course with tighter turns compared to wider turns, which would be an advantage to bikes? Tight?
 

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Great post! So if a course with tighter turns compared to wider turns, which would be an advantage to bikes? Tight?
The tighter the course, the better chance the bike stands. Like he said the more room a car gets to stretch its legs, the better it will do. And the faster the track, the more aerodynamics will have an effect on the outcome.
 

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You'd be surprised at how fast a subcompact car can go around corners if the driver wants to push it. To compete with a sports car in corners you need to be willing to scrape the pegs in corners, but I don't trust the sandy, greasy public roads! There is a 1/4 inch 'chicken strip' on my back tire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
The tighter the course, the better chance the bike stands. Like he said the more room a car gets to stretch its legs, the better it will do. And the faster the track, the more aerodynamics will have an effect on the outcome.
Makes sense.

There is a 1/4 inch 'chicken strip' on my back tire.
......... sorry to hear that. :point
 
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