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post #31 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-24-2007, 09:25 AM
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I started on a 06 zx6r and have been riding that for about a year now. I picked up a ninja 650 as a second bike. I now ride the 650 every time I can. The 6r stays in track mode for track days/races unless I have to ride it on the street then I swap the stuff back to street status. The 650r is more comfortable, and plenty fast. An SV or 650R is more then enough bike and can get anyone in trouble.

I feel sorry for people who only have one SS bike and haven't ridden anything else. They are missing out on the fun of a smaller bike. The 650 brings more smiles to my face daily then the 6r. The only time I like the 6r more is out at the track where I have 4.8 miles per lap of smooth pavement to really open it up.

My bikes share the garage with my modded evo 9 MR and before the bikes I had a Talon that ran low [email protected]+ (at 5400ft elevation) which is faster then either of my bikes.
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post #32 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-24-2007, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanEJ8
[IMG]I don't want to start a fight, I really want to learn something.
Then listen to what the experienced riders are saying. You're obviously not doing that.

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It just seems to me like you assume everyones situation is the same though.
Because it is. You're yet another aspiring rider that can drive a car and you think that means you can hop on a fast bike. We've seen it a thousand times every season and it's always the same. You aren't the exception.

A bike is not a car. Everything is completely different. The fact that you're implying that good drivers make good riders just shows how ignorant you are on the subject. Educate yourself.

Quote:
I don't want to be a professional race bike rider, I want to be a recreational rider that can safely ride a bike.
Not going to happen with your attitude, as you'll be more of a risk to yourself and others on any supersport bike. A 600cc supersport is for EXPERIENCED riders, and a novice with the keys is not even remotely "safe."

Personally, I don't typically like to ride with new riders on supersport bikes because I've seen way too many stupid mistakes for me to put myself in that position again.

If you want to be a safe rider, do it the right way and put your ego aside, sheath your e-penis, and listen to people that have been doing this for years.

Get a used 500, put several thousand miles on it in varying conditions, and make gradual steps until you find the bike you want.

Quote:
I don't have to be the best or the fastest, but I also don't see why that would require me to ride a bike that only has enough power to run a 14 flat.
You're more concerned about speed than being safe. This is evident in your posts. You're attracted to motorcycles because of what they will do for your image, not for your personal satisfaction. You will probably wreck, but I hope for your sake that it's not at high speed and you're at least smart enough to wear a helmet, if not full gear.

Good luck with whatever you do, as I think you will probably need it.
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post #33 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IwakuniDiver

Oh, since we're in a pic sharing mode. You win today's prize if you can tell me what kind of car I'm driving in the first pic. If you can guess what my car (gray one on the left) is, you don't know your imports at all.

Mmm. Looks like a Mitsu Lancer Evo II and an R32 Skyline GTR...what's today's prize?

Props on the cars and the post. Great info!
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post #34 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemosley01
Once again, 'advice' from a guy who has logged 25 total hours. Good job.

Ryan, the simple fact is that the statistics say you are not an exception. But since you believe that you are, do what you want. Just don't make the rest of us look bad. You don't want to learn, you want to pose and you want confirmation of your choice. Like I said, if that's all you want to do, go for the 1000 - you'll be bored with the 600 in a year.

Once again, another argument for a tiered licensing system.
Statistics say that the majority of riders are idiots that think they're superman, not that their bike was too big.

* Helmet use among fatally injured motorcyclists below 50 percent
* More motorcyclist fatalities are occurring on rural roads
* High blood alcohol levels are a major problem among motorcycle operators
* Half of the fatalities are related to negotiating a curve prior to the crash
* Over 80 percent of the fatalities occur off roadway
* Undivided roadways account for a majority of the fatalities
* Almost two thirds of the fatalities were associated with speeding as an operator contributing factor in the crash
* Almost 60 percent of motorcyclist fatalities occur at night
* Collision with a fixed object is a significant factor in over half of the fatalities
* Braking and steering maneuvers possibly contribute for almost 25 percent of the fatalities
* More riders age 40 and over are getting killed
* Almost one third of the fatally injured operators did not have a proper license

You could just as easily do these things and get killed with a 250 as a 600. If I try to take a 25mph turn at 100mph, no helmet, with a Ninja 250 I'm just as dead as if I tried to do the same turn with a 600rr. The fact is, I won't attempt such stupid things. Statistics seem to show stupidity as the leading cause of motorcycle fatalities, not the size of the bike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bush
Personally, I don't typically like to ride with new riders on supersport bikes because I've seen way too many stupid mistakes for me to put myself in that position again.
So someone driving like a retard on a Ninja 250 is any safer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bush
You're more concerned about speed than being safe. This is evident in your posts. You're attracted to motorcycles because of what they will do for your image, not for your personal satisfaction. You will probably wreck, but I hope for your sake that it's not at high speed and you're at least smart enough to wear a helmet, if not full gear.

Good luck with whatever you do, as I think you will probably need it.
No it's personal satisfaction that interests me in bikes and I can tell you I wouldn't be satisfied spending several thousand dollars on a bike I don't want and would end up getting rid of in after a very short period of time. There has to be another way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IwakuniDiver
Oh, since we're in a pic sharing mode. You win today's prize if you can tell me what kind of car I'm driving in the first pic. If you can guess what my car (gray one on the left) is, you don't know your imports at all.
I don't know alot about other imports, just Hondas, but it looks like a Nissan.
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post #35 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal
I started on a 06 zx6r and have been riding that for about a year now. I picked up a ninja 650 as a second bike. I now ride the 650 every time I can. The 6r stays in track mode for track days/races unless I have to ride it on the street then I swap the stuff back to street status. The 650r is more comfortable, and plenty fast. An SV or 650R is more then enough bike and can get anyone in trouble.

I feel sorry for people who only have one SS bike and haven't ridden anything else. They are missing out on the fun of a smaller bike. The 650 brings more smiles to my face daily then the 6r. The only time I like the 6r more is out at the track where I have 4.8 miles per lap of smooth pavement to really open it up.

My bikes share the garage with my modded evo 9 MR and before the bikes I had a Talon that ran low [email protected]+ (at 5400ft elevation) which is faster then either of my bikes.
I love my 650 and, yes, it is plenty enough bike to start on.

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post #36 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanEJ8
Statistics say that the majority of riders are idiots that think they're superman, not that their bike was too big.

* Helmet use among fatally injured motorcyclists below 50 percent
* More motorcyclist fatalities are occurring on rural roads
* High blood alcohol levels are a major problem among motorcycle operators
* Half of the fatalities are related to negotiating a curve prior to the crash
* Over 80 percent of the fatalities occur off roadway
* Undivided roadways account for a majority of the fatalities
* Almost two thirds of the fatalities were associated with speeding as an operator contributing factor in the crash
* Almost 60 percent of motorcyclist fatalities occur at night
* Collision with a fixed object is a significant factor in over half of the fatalities
* Braking and steering maneuvers possibly contribute for almost 25 percent of the fatalities
* More riders age 40 and over are getting killed
* Almost one third of the fatally injured operators did not have a proper license

You could just as easily do these things and get killed with a 250 as a 600. If I try to take a 25mph turn at 100mph, no helmet, with a Ninja 250 I'm just as dead as if I tried to do the same turn with a 600rr. The fact is, I won't attempt such stupid things. Statistics seem to show stupidity as the leading cause of motorcycle fatalities, not the size of the bike.


So someone driving like a retard on a Ninja 250 is any safer?
No one implied that you can't kill yourself on a 250, but I can tell you that a 250 WON'T get out of control as quickly as a 600ss.

How many supersports have you ever ridden? What's that? None? Thank you.

I love how you gloss over the other ones.

* Half of the fatalities are related to negotiating a curve prior to the crash

This does not mean the rider was being an idiot - it does mean that the rider did not know how to properly control their bike. A 600 just exacerbates this problem for a new rider because minor inputs can result in major changes.

Most of those crashes were the result of a rider not knowing the limits of their motorcycle.

* Braking and steering maneuvers possibly contribute for almost 25 percent of the fatalities

This does not mean the rider didn't brake enough - most likely they overbraked and lost control. Steering means just that - steering the bike - you know, through a corner? Precisely the type of thing learning on a smaller bike that doesn't have race ergos teaches you.

* Almost two thirds of the fatalities were associated with speeding as an operator contributing factor in the crash

And only 37% of the crashes was speed THE primary cause. Speeding can also mean what is considered as 'too fast for conditions', not breaking the speed limit.

[b]* More riders age 40 and over are getting killed[b]

What do you think this statistic means. These are not just 40 and over it's 40 and over and returning or new riders - you know, mature people. Their maturity didn't enable them to properly operate the bike and better.

Shoots the whole 'I'll control myself' argument dead.

Let's look what else the statistics say - the young riders on 600cc bikes are overrepresented in both fatality and crash statistics. Not the greatest number of crashes, but they are crashing more often than other groups. What is one to make of that given that pretty much the only 600s that 25 and under ride are sportbikes, and that many of these are new riders.

You can argue with the insurance statistics that rape young guys on supersports because of the enormous number of crashes they have as well.

What else do we know? That the best riders in the world started on small motorcycles.

Like I said, you'll do what you want. You clearly have all the answers, having never logged one mile on a street bike. You are the exception - you are special.

Tell me, is it stupidity when someone jumps out of a plane with no chute after being told not to do it by someone who is experienced in skydiving? You're 'stupid' if you ignore the advice you are being given by people who are much more experienced than you.

Get the 1000 - you will get bored of the 600. I expect you'll get bored of bikes before long anyway - your kind usually gets bored with posing and gives it up after a couple years, or you crash and gives it up.
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post #37 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanEJ8

I don't know alot about other imports, just Hondas, but it looks like a Nissan.
Well, your right about the Nissan part and I have to give another vote for calling it an Skyline R32...GT or GTS maybe??

I think any gearhead should give credit where its due...all must bow down before a Skyline!

Iwakuni...thats a nice set of wheels, one day I hope to have one if I'm ever stationed in Japan!

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post #38 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanEJ8
* Half of the fatalities are related to negotiating a curve prior to the crash
* Almost two thirds of the fatalities were associated with speeding as an operator contributing factor in the crash
* Collision with a fixed object is a significant factor in over half of the fatalities
* Braking and steering maneuvers possibly contribute for almost 25 percent of the fatalities
The statistics you posted argue against you. The reason you don't jump on a 600 is that the mistakes you WILL make as a new rider will be amplified, causing you to do things like lost control in a curve, end up going faster than you thought, or wiping out your bike because you failed to brake or steer correctly.

Trust me, I'm a new rider. I have made mistakes that could have easily done any of those things if I were on a bigger bike.

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post #39 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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For those that are curious, the first car was my 350hp 1992 first gen Lancer Evolution and the second was my 450hp 1990 R32 GTR.

And I didn't post the pictures to brag but to make a point. Both my Evo and my GTR, being AWD would run 0-60 in the high 3's. I capped my GTR out on the expressway at over 270lph. The point is that both cars ran as fast as modern 600's and i consider myself a pretty decent driver. That means jack-shit on a bike.

I love going fast as much as the next guy, and I admit it. But I want to be a good rider, if even to the same level that I drive which is going to take years of track experience and skill progression through tried and true methods. Like starting with a small bike.

But since you believe you are "special" and the wisdom from years of motorcycle riding that can be found here doesn't apply to you, just go do whatever you want. Nobody here is going to lose any sleep when you crash.

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post #40 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 03:45 PM
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LMAO - I did a quick search and found your statistics. They cover only single vehicle crashes which represnet 45% of the crashes, not multi-vehicle crashes.
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/crash.htm

Whoops. What else does that report say:

How about this gem (Section 4.3 of the pdf that is linked):
This indicates that the 20-29 year old age group is still the
leading at risk age group in terms of the number of motorcyclist fatalities.

Then there is the MAIDS report which indicates both that NEW riders are over-represented in crashes and that 600-900 cc bikes are also over represented in crashes.

Europe has a much more strict licensing system than we do and starter bikes there are much smaller - 50-125ccs, which means that 600-900 cc motorcycles that are crashed are being crashed by experienced riders.

Lets put an inexperienced rider on a bike that experienced riders are crashing and think about what happens. Do you think the new rider will be less safe, more safe, or just as safe as an experienced rider?
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post #41 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemosley01
[b]* More riders age 40 and over are getting killed[b]

What do you think this statistic means. These are not just 40 and over it's 40 and over and returning or new riders - you know, mature people. Their maturity didn't enable them to properly operate the bike and better.

Shoots the whole 'I'll control myself' argument dead.
Are you saying its not possible for some people over forty to be immature.


Quote:
* Half of the fatalities are related to negotiating a curve prior to the crash

This does not mean the rider was being an idiot - it does mean that the rider did not know how to properly control their bike. A 600 just exacerbates this problem for a new rider because minor inputs can result in major changes.

Most of those crashes were the result of a rider not knowing the limits of their motorcycle.
It could also mean the rider was over pushing his own limits. And SOME (definitly not all,I will give you that) can very slowly push their limits.

Quote:
* Almost two thirds of the fatalities were associated with speeding as an operator contributing factor in the crash

And only 37% of the crashes was speed THE primary cause. Speeding can also mean what is considered as 'too fast for conditions', not breaking the speed limit.
Speeding or riding to fast for conditions is two things some new riders dont do. Those are mistakes SOME new riders do and SOME don't do.

With the riding too fast in bad conditions (for 1 example) I could assume most those people would have probably still crashed no matter what they were riding. Those stats don't tell you which accidents were because of the bike.

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post #42 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-25-2007, 11:41 PM
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Same dumb arguments.

First off, I've asked for an empirical measure of maturity.

Your second point, why not just also say it was possible that aliens came and zapped his front end with a no-steering juice ray? You could just come up with endless possibilities and further muddy a bad argument.

3rd point, same ole same ole. No one is condoning speeding, as you are trying to make it look like.

What is being said AND HAS been said several times, if you don't speed, it doesn't mean you're safer. It means you don't speed.

The point is, and since you're missing it I will make it simple, since speed isn't the majority cause of accidents, there must be another reason. Since newer riders die more often, maybe that could be lack of understanding? Inability to control their bikes in a safe manner? or, for you, Hairy, ape-man like woodland creatures may have stuck a banana in their tailpipe?

Hmm, sounds like inexperience and bad inputs are the more likely scenario.

I fully expect a very lame argument to ensue with the non-thinking crowd.

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post #43 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-26-2007, 02:23 AM
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wow, impressive thread. i am a new new rider to the street, been on the dirt side for 30 years. I did start with the ninja 250 actually, took the beginner corses on ridin. what a difference between dirt and street, some i would have never guessed. i am also 6'4" and the 250 didn't fit me to bad but it did what i needed it to. i have worked my way up to a 600, comfert was 1 reason, i have taken many classes on street ridin and i will take more when they are given. i ain't sayin that i won't wreck and die, that can happen to anyone. i am almost 40 yrs old and have a lot of exsperiance at a lot of things, but, i am not to proud to say yes i am a beginner. just thought i would throw my in $.02 worth. i have read this whole thread and printed several pages, i think there is some really good info in it.
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post #44 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-26-2007, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargin_Bastige
Same dumb arguments.

First off, I've asked for an empirical measure of maturity.

Your second point, why not just also say it was possible that aliens came and zapped his front end with a no-steering juice ray? You could just come up with endless possibilities and further muddy a bad argument.

3rd point, same ole same ole. No one is condoning speeding, as you are trying to make it look like.

What is being said AND HAS been said several times, if you don't speed, it doesn't mean you're safer. It means you don't speed.

The point is, and since you're missing it I will make it simple, since speed isn't the majority cause of accidents, there must be another reason. Since newer riders die more often, maybe that could be lack of understanding? Inability to control their bikes in a safe manner? or, for you, Hairy, ape-man like woodland creatures may have stuck a banana in their tailpipe?

Hmm, sounds like inexperience and bad inputs are the more likely scenario.

I fully expect a very lame argument to ensue with the non-thinking crowd.
Thanks for saving me the effort.
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post #45 of 128 (permalink) Old 05-26-2007, 08:16 AM
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FB: For an empirical view at maturity, could we not look at ticket statistics?

Drag racing, exhibition of speed, fleeing/eluding, and reckless op as well as DUI might be good indicators of someone who is mature and making the right decisions?
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