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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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new rider question

I have ridden other's sportbikes off and on over the years. I know it's not the same and I will be a beginner when I cop my own bike this spring. I check out the books, the DVDs, and MSF courses and all. The sport bike rags suggest never starting out on a liter bike. Some people suggest now even buying a new 600. I am 35, will protect the bike with the frame, swing arm, bar sliders and all. I will take my time to learn the bike and not push before I am ready. My friend tried to sell me his '98 GSX-R. He says it's perfect to start for a 6'2 230 lbs rider like myself. He says while 600s are easier to handle and learn on I will quickly outgrow it. As long as my knees aren't in my chin, I do not have a problem with 600's. My brothers GSX-R 600 feels fine. I do not need or want the liter bike at this point and am digging the undertail exhausts of the Kawasaki and Honda 600s. The '04 GSX-R 750 is the last 3/4 Japanese bike anyways. What to you guys thing about starting out on the supermiddleweight Ninja ZX-6R (636 cc)?
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 05:52 PM
 
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Sportbike rags don't consider bikes like the Ninja 250/500 "sportbikes" because they aren't used as top-level production racers and have been unchanged for years.

If your riding experience is limited to the MSF and a few miles here and there on other bikes over the years, then do not start on a 600cc sportbike of any type. They aren't starter bikes despite what your friend and the magazines say.

Your first bike should be cheap and easy to ride. I highly recommend the Ninja 250, 500 or GS500 as a first bike for someone wanting to ride a sportbike. The Ninjas especially will allow you to develop good clutch and throttle control and play with the powerband until you have the finesse and ability to handle the touchier and bigger sports.
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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 06:54 PM
 
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I agree with linuxbikr. If you were looking for your first car, you would not be considering an F1 racer, a top-fuel funney car, or a NASCAR. The reason why you do not see reviews of the 500CC and 250CC sport bikes are because they are not the bikes that the MotoGP and AMA pros are racing. The low cost of motorcycles makes it financially feasable to be riding the same equipment that the pro's do, but that does not make it a smart choice for a beginner. Master riding on a Ninja 250/500 or GS500 first, then you will be ready for a racing bike. It will be much more gratifying to learn good riding techniques on a less powerful bike and move up to a racing bike that you can actually handle rather than pussyfooting around on the racing bike because you have not mastered the techniques.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 07:28 PM
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I will try to make this simple. There are two things that keep people alive on motorcycles:

1. not riding like an idiot
2. being able to control the machine

Number 1 certainly helps, but you're still liable to get screwed without number 2. A 600cc supersport is harder to learn on and less forgiving. Somebody pulls out in front of you, you'd likely fare better on a 500cc. You might get lucky and make it on a 600, you might not, but there are better beginner bikes.
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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 07:46 PM
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Form Equals Function: Sportbikes are Not Beginner Bikes

Introduction

Well, another riding season is upon us and as it always happens, we get lots of inquiries from potential new riders on how to get into the sport, what's a good first ride, where to take safety classes and so on. One particular type of inquiry that pops up with almost clockwork frequency is from a small number of new riders who wish to buy 600cc and up sportbikes as their first ride.

For the past year and a half, I, along with lots of other BB forum members, have entertained this question of 600cc sportbikes for a first ride with patience and lots and lots of repetition. It seems this small group of newbies keep coming back with the same arguments and questions over and over again. As a result, I am going to take the time in this column to try and put into words, answers that get repeated over and over on the BB forums.

Allow me to state first and foremost that I am a sport rider. My first bike was a Ninja 250R and I put nearly 7000 miles on it in two seasons before selling it. I am presently shopping for my next ride and it will almost certainly be a sportbike or sport tourer in the 600-1000cc range. I am also building a track bike in my garage which I hope to complete this season (a Yamaha FZR600). Although I am not an expert rider by any stretch, I have tinkered enough and done enough research along with talking with other riders to be able to speak with some degree of knowledge on the subject.

This column is split into two parts. First, I would like to address the common arguments we see here as to why a 600cc sportbike simply must be a first ride along with rebuttals. Second, I want to cover the rationale behind why the BB community-at-large steers new riders away from these machines.

False Logic

On about a three month interval, a whole slew of questions pop up on the BB forum from potential riders trying to convince the community that a 600cc sportbike is a suitable first ride and then proceed to explain to us why they are the exception. I can almost set my clock to this pattern of behavior since it is almost swarm-like. I guess the newbies figure by swamping the forum with the same questions in lots of places we might trip up and endorse such a machine. Hasn't happened yet but they keep on trying.

For those of you that come to Beginner Bikes trying to convince us to endorse a 600cc sportbike, I offer you the following responses to your arguments.
I can only afford to get one bike so it might as be the one that I want.

I don't want to go through the hassle of buying and selling a used bike to learn on.

These two lines of reasoning pop up as one of the more common arguments. I am going to offer first a piece of wisdom which is stated with great regularity on the forums:

This is your first bike, not your last.

Motorcycle riders are reputed to change bikes, on average, once every two to three years. If this is the case (and it appears to be based on my observations), the bike you learn to ride on will not be in your garage in a few years time anyway whether you buy it new or used. You're going to sell it regardless to get something different, newer, more powerful, more comfortable, etc.

Yes, buying a bike involves effort and a financial outlay. Most of us simply cannot afford to drop thousands of dollars on a whim every time we want to try something new. Getting into riding is a serious commitment in time and money and we want the best value out it as much as possible.

However, if you can afford to buy outright or finance a 600cc or up sportbike that costs $7000 on average, you can probably afford to spend $2000 or so on a used bike to learn on. Most of the beginner sportbikes we recommend here (Ninja 250/500, Buell Blast, GS500) can all be found used for between $1500-$3000.

Done properly, buying and selling that first bike is a fairly painless process. Buying a used bike is no harder than buying new. I would argue it is a bit easier. No different than buying a used car from a private seller. If you've done that at least once, you'll know what to do in buying a used bike.

Selling a beginner bike is even easier. You want to know why? Because beginner bikes are constantly in demand (especially Ninja 250s). These bikes spend their lives migrating from one new rider to the next to act as a teaching vehicle. It is not uncommon for a beginner bike to see four or five different owners before it is wrecked or junked. There are a lot of people out there looking for inexpensive, reliable bikes and all of our beginner recommendations fit into that category.

If you buy a used Ninja 250R for $1500, ride it for a season or two, you can be almost guaranteed that you will be able to resell that bike for $1300 or so when you are done with it provided you take care of it. And on a bike like the Ninja 250R, the average turnaround on such a sale is two to three days. No joke. I had five offers on my Ninja 250R within FOUR HOURS of my ad going up on Cycle Trader. I put the bike on hold the same day and sold it four days later to a fellow who drove 500 miles to pick it up. My bike never made it into the print edition. Believe me, the demand is there.

And look at it this way: For those one or two seasons of riding using the above example, excluding maintenance costs which you have no matter what, you will have paid a net cost of $200 to ride that Ninja. That is extremely cheap for what is basically a bike rental for a year or two. Considering it can cost $300 or more just to rent a 600cc sportbike for a weekend (not including the $1500-$2000 security deposit), that is economic value that you simply cannot argue with.

Vanity Arguments

The beginner bikes you recommend are dated and ugly looking.

I want something that's modern and stylish.

I want a bike that looks good and that I look good on.

I call these the vanity arguments. These are probably the worst reasons you can have for wanting a particular bike.

I will not disagree that aesthetics plays a huge part in the bikes that appeal to us. Motorcycles are the ultimate expression in personal taste in vehicles. Far more than cars. Bikes are more personal and the connection between rider and machine is far more intimate on a bike than a car. On a bike, you are part of the machine, not just a passive passenger.

However, as entry into world of riding and with the temporarily status that most beginner bikes have in our garages, looks should be the least of your concerns. As long as the bike is in good repair and mechanically sound, that is usually enough for most new riders to be happy. Most riders are happy to ride and they will ride anything given the choice between riding or not riding.

If you are looking at bike mainly because of how it looks and/or how you will look it and how others will perceive you on it, take a good, long, honest look as to why you want to ride. There are lots of people out there who buy things strictly because of how it makes them appear in the eyes of others. It's shallow and vain but it is a fact of life. It shouldn't be a factor in choosing that first ride but it is. I won't deny that.

The difference is: a BMW or Mercedes generally won't leaving you hanging on for dear life if you stomp on the accelerator or throw you into the road if you slam on the brakes a little hard. Virtually ever sportbike made in the past 10-15 years will do both of those things given a chance to do so (for reasons that will be explained later in this column).

The population at large may think you're cool and look great on that brand new sportbike and ohh-and-ahh at you. The ohhs can quickly turn to screams of horror should, in your efforts to impress the masses, you wind up dumping your bike and surfing the asphalt. Will you still look cool with thousands of dollars in damage to that once-beautiful sportbike and with the signatures and well-wishes of your friends on the various casts you'll be wearing months afterwards?

You Be The Judge

I'm a big rider so I need a bigger bike to get me around.

I'm a tall rider and all of those beginner bikes just don't fit me the way the sportbike does.

I'll look huge and foolish riding on such a small bike.

My friends will laugh at me for riding something so small.

These arguments are almost as bad as the vanity arguments. The difference being is they simply show a lack of motorcycle knowledge for the most part.

Unless you are over 6'3" tall or are extremely overweight (meaning well over 300lbs), even the smallest 250cc motorcycle will be able to accommodate you without difficultly. To provide an example, the Ninja 250R has a load limit of 348 pounds. That is more than sufficient to accommodate a heavier rider in full gear and still leave plenty of space for cargo in tank, tail and saddle bags. Or enough to allow two-up riding between two average weight individuals.

The idea that bigger riders need bigger bikes is almost laughable. It's like saying small drivers need Honda Civics but bigger drivers only 100 pounds heavier need to drive Hummers to get around. Or Corvettes with plenty of power to pull their ample frames, as the analogy goes. It is only because of the small physical size of bikes compared to their users that this train of thought even exists. It simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny. A look at any motorcycle owner's manual will confirm that for you.

Tall riders suffer more from fit issues than weight issues. On this, they do have a point. I'm a taller rider (6'1"). I do fold up quite comfortably on the Ninja 250 which is considered a small bike. I found it perfect for my frame. Others haven't. Then again, my knees hit the bars on bikes like the Rebel 250 and Buell Blast. Just different ergonomics that didn't fit me.

For taller riders, a much better beginner fit is a dual-sport machine rather than a sport machine. They offer the high seat heights that make them comfortable rides and their power is well within acceptable limits. We have a small but vocal dual-sport community here and they will tell you, quite rightly, that a dual-sport is just as capable on twisty roads as a sportbike. The same properties that give sportbikes their cornering ability is also possessed by dual sports (high center of gravity).

As to peer pressure, I admit to taking more than my fair share of ribbing from my 600cc riding friends. Some of it good natured, some of it not. In the end, this argument falls into the vanity arena. Which is more important: Your safety and comfort on a bike or what your friends think?

The ways to deal with friends giving you a hard time about a smaller ride is very simple. Tell them to ride their rides and you'll ride yours. It's your ride, after all. Most true riders will accept other riders, no matter what they are on. Only posers and losers care that your ride doesn't measure up to their "standards". And if so, do you really want to be riding with them anyway? It's more fun to stand out than to be a member of a flock anyway. And if they don't buy that line of reasoning, try this one: "Well if you don't like my ride, why don't you go buy me something that you will like?". THAT will shut them up REALLY fast. It works too. Unless their name is on the payment book or the title, it shouldn't be their concern.

If your friends can't deal with your decisions, you're probably better off looking for new friends. And if you can't deal with the peer pressure, then you are putting your own safety at risk solely because of what others think. Revisit the vanity arguments above and think about why you want to ride.

Decision Justification Arguments

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

I'm a careful driver so I'll be a careful rider and not get into trouble.

I drive a fast car so I'll be able to handle a fast bike.

Other people have started on a 600cc sportbike and didn't get hurt. So why can't I?

These arguments are the most common ones put forth and the ones that are hardest to deal with. These are the arguments that start flame wars. Because it is on these arguments that you have to convince someone the idea of what a beginner bike is over their preconceived notions.

The arguments also often surface in what I call the "decision justification arguments". Many new riders have their heart set on a specific bike and often come to BB to ask about it not to get real advice but to get confirmation that their decision is right. In cruisers, standards, scooters and dual-sports, more often than not these "pre-decisions" are generally good ones. In sportbikes, more than 3/4 of the posters are trying to get the community to approve their choice of a 600cc machine as a first ride. Their shock is quite real when they are barraged with answers that don't meet their expectations and that is when a flurry of oft-repeated discussion ensues.

Let's take each argument in turn since these are the ones that turn up with regularity.

I'll take it easy and grow into the bike.

The purpose of a first bike is to allow you to master basic riding skills, build confidence and develop street survival strategies. You don't grow into a bike. You develop your skills on it. As your skills develop, so does your confidence and with it, your willingness to explore what the bike is capable of.

But you are also entering in a contract with the bike. It is two-way. You are going to expect the bike to act on your inputs and the bike in turn is going to respond. The problem is, your skills are still developing but the bike doesn't know that. It does what it is told. You want a partner in a contract to treat you fairly. On a bike, you don't want it fighting you every step of the way. And like most contracts, the problems don't start until there is a breakdown in communication or a misunderstanding.

In sportbikes, the disparity between a new rider's fledgling skills and the responsiveness of the machine are very far apart. That is a wide gulf to bridge when you are still trying to figure out what the best inputs and actions on the bike should be. Ideally, you want your bike to do what you tell it and do it nicely. You never want the bike to argue with you. Modern sportbikes, despite their exquisite handling will often argue violently right at the moment a new rider doesn't need them to.

Remember, riding is a LEARNED skill. It does not come naturally to the majority of us (save those like the Hayden brothers who were raised on dirt bikes from the moment they could walk). It must be practiced and refined. Riding is counter-intuitive to most new riders. It doesn't happen the way you expect. For example, at speeds over 25mph, to get a bike to go right, you actually turn the bars to the left. It's called counter-steering and it eventually comes naturally as breathing once you've been in the saddle for a while. But for new riders, this kind of thing is utterly baffling.

You want your skills to grow in a measurable and predictable fashion. You have enough to be fearful of riding in traffic. The last thing you need is to be fearful of what your bike might do when you aren't ready for it. It's never a good situation.

It is interesting to point out that only one manufacturer, Suzuki, explicitly states in their promotional material that their GSX-R family of sportbikes are intended for experienced riders. This also applies to several of their larger, more powerful machines (such as a GSX-1300R Hayabusa). If Suzuki issues such a warning for its top-flight sport machines, it is reasonable to say that the same warning would apply equally to similar machines from other manufacturers.

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2004, 05:52 PM
 
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What do you say to a person that has taken basic riding course and experienced riding course and wants to start out on a 600 cc?
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2004, 08:25 PM
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How can you have taken the experienced riders' course if you're just starting out
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2004, 10:17 PM
 
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well you can take both classes before you actually buy a bike nig
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-30-2004, 10:19 PM
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I was told you need a year's experience before you take the advanced class. Are we talking about the MSF?
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-31-2004, 12:17 AM
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Excellent Post X
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 10-31-2004, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAss.
What do you say to a person that has taken basic riding course and experienced riding course and wants to start out on a 600 cc?
I would say to listen to the people who really ride their bikes. I have an '04 F4i that I bought in the spring and have already covered 8000 miles on it. I don't commute, I RIDE MY MOTORCYCLES. The F4i was my first true sportbike. I didn't listen to those around me, and I almost paid dearly in traffic one day. I believe only my years of experience riding saved me. Todays 600's are specialized machines. They have twitchy throttles and brakes and will buck you off quick enough to make the PBR proud!! Why not start on something "kinder and gentler" until you decide what kind of MC rider you want to be? The 600's and liter bikes are and will be around so why rush?...unless there is that special pic you want to pose for....
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2004, 04:13 PM
 
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i am by no means trying to advertise buying a 600 for your first sports bike i was just wondering what people though about the above statement. if you dont me asking what happend in traffic that your years of experience saved you from?
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2004, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAss.
What do you say to a person that has taken basic riding course and experienced riding course and wants to start out on a 600 cc?
still not a good idea, and i recommend peeps to get 3-4000mi under their belt before taking the advanced. chances are your gonna own a bike before you take the advanced. esp. considering the advanced you bring your own bike.......

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 08-21-2006, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE=dnice913] What to you guys thing about starting out on the supermiddleweight Ninja ZX-6R (636 cc)?[/QUOTE]
To answer your original question, getting a 600 for a 1st bike is better than getting a liter bike. All things being relative, the smaller the bike the better for learning. If you aren't a hot head and value your life, you will be fine on a 600cc bike. The smaller the bike the quicker youi learn.....
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 09-09-2006, 09:26 PM
 
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My first bike is 600

I kinda wish that maybe I had found this site much earlier . I took a driver training course ( might be abit different here in Canada ) But I learned on an older Suzuki G125 ( very old I think ) any way I felt like I got a good grasp on emergency stops and push steering etc. so when it came to buy my firts bike I was told " I don't yet know what I like to ride becuase I don't have that much experience " and not to get a smaller bike becuase in a year I'll want something bigger and the beginner bike will be a hard re sell . So all that being said I bought the 06 Honda CB599 and I have to say taht so far I am very happy with it. I am not an out of control power freak , I realized the first time I got on it, that this was a bike to be respected and I treat it as such but now that I read all this I wonder if I made a bad choice, but I take my time so I think I'll be okay because I know all the guys who want to ride with me want to ride at insane speeds around town 150 plus................I ride for me not for them , they laugh at me cause I drive like a girl lol but ya know I like being in one piece so I think that if I am taking my time i'll be okay..........I hope that I am not being naive. I have really been reading the hell outta this site since I signed up and i am learning alot !
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