Position in turns

[Zyankaly]

Wanted to know how you guys and girls position your self in turns. I mean, for real lean angels and knee dragging.

This is what I do for, lets say, a left hand turn(teached my self so pls tell me if something can be done better) :
Ride at turn, brake, let go of brakes, lift my self on the pegs, move body to the left till right leg hooks up at the seat, at the same time positioning the left foot higer up the peg, while whole turn I keep my uperbody left from the bike, when getting out of it I get back into normal position right before the turn has ended.

and why do I actualy have sutch a better controll over the bike if I put my body next to the bike ?

[Darkstar]

its hard to say if your technique is bad or not because its all personal preference. and for me it really depends on the turn. but one thing you must always do, and msf or any rider course should teach you this, LOOK AS FAR THREW THE CORNER AS POSSIBLE!

it also takes some time to develope the technique you like the best...i still havnt perfected mine...i bet rossi still trys out some new stuff from time to time.

at speeds where i wont get blown off the bike i hang my upper body as far off as i can and about 1/2-3/4 of my ass off. also known as "kissing the mirrior" and at faster speeds i hang my ass off farther and hang my upper body as far off ass possible why still hiding behind the windscreen.

im a late braker my self so here is what i do.
-hit the brakes at the latest possible moment feeling my rear tire skim the pavement while i sit up to a normal riding pos. and looking as far threw the corner as possible

-gradually let off the brakes as i set my ass off of the seat and move my upper body as far over to, lets say, the left as i get to full lean and look as far threw the corner as possible

-mid corner, at full lean, the brakes are usually off and im starting to apply a steady throttle while holding a steady body position and looking as far threw the corner as possible

-3/4 threw im usually full throttle on my little 250, rocketing out of a corner. i'm still hanging off as far as i can and the bike is starting to exit the corner and im stil looking as far down the track as possible

-out of the corner, depending on the speed of the corner, im either in full tuck or still hanging off for dear life trying to stay on that white line. im usually still hanging off after the slower turns...the faster turns i can usually get in full tuck cuz the little ol 2fiddy doesnt have much steam to really worry about runnin wide.


if you wanna set up to drag knee, get to know the corner well then just get up to your corner speed and hang as far off that bitch as you can and stick your knee way the fuck out. lol

^^i see a lot of people doing that^^. when i hang off i dont stick my knee out, i just let it hang. i know my body position and bike well enough that when my knee touches the ground im wayyyy the fuck over and i have a little more lean to work with. at the track im always passing people dragging knee around a corner and i can sense that my knee isnt all that close and i can still push a lot harder. i dont understand why people feel the need to stick their knees out so far.

i have seen some really goofy riding positions in my day...and some of them are those of REALLY fast guys...so really its all about what works best for you.

damn, this was long. i guess i dont have much more to think about at 5am.

[MAGNUM636]

ttt
we should have a topic for Riding Technique. I'm interested in what everyone has to say.

[hybrid]

I dont know about that technique but it sounds f@cked to me. You should have the gas on as your entering the corner. To have the bike change pitch from releasing the brakes and getting on the gas while leaned is just wrong.


The text book way to corner (no trail braking) is:

Pop up, sqeeze into the brakes linearly.
shift position onto bike before turning (gets the suspension closer to settling)
Turn bike to desired trajectory and lean angle at the same time you "set" the throttle to idle at what ever rpm you want it to be at. (even at 10k rpm, if the throttle is at idle position i.e. 1/8 throttle it only makes 5-10 hp)
gently roll throttle on as grip maintains thru corner.
stand bike up and gas it.

remember a smooth transition on the throttle is always better.

I have seen the data aquisition chandler's and T. hayden's bikes when I worked for muzzy and chandler was always rolling from 1/8 to full in smooth curves and hayden was like a heart rate monitor. you tell me who the better rider was. I worked with them and chandler was the champion. I love tommy but he was a green rider then. He has come a long way since then

The best answer is to look thru the corner by far for the other answer though. You cant go where your not looking

[Darkstar]

ever heard of trail braking?

Try to follow this. I have a hard time with the scientific crap, but this is really helpful in understanding why trail braking helps you go faster. It's also where trail braking got it's name.

Rake & Trail

"Rake" comes from the angle of your steering head. When you project a line from your steering head all the way to the floor, on that exact angle, you get to a particular point on the floor.

"Trail" is the difference you have between a plumb line projected down from your front axle to the floor, and then measured to this projected point of your rake.

It's easy to see here:
http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm


The more trail you have, the more stable your bike will feel at speed, but the slower it will steer. The less trail you have, the quicker it will steer.

Picture your bike from a side view. Imagine it with the forks topped out. That gives you a lot of trail. Now imagine them fully compressed. That gives you very little trail.....

Trail braking keeps your forks compressed while you lean the bike in, which helps you get the pig turned. Hence the name "Trail braking." Once you're turned, "G" forces will keep them compressed, and keep you turning.

So no, braking actually does the opposite from standing you up. You just need to combine the braking with some counter steering and you'll be stylin.

[hybrid]

yeah sure, I knew about trail braking long ago and we are talking to someone who doesnt understand the concept of what front end dynamics are.

Trail brake all you want, I do but it isnt to keep the front end compressed. So you obviously dont understand either. You own some 250's so thats cool but the real reason for trail braking is you can scrub some speed off while leaned. That comes with experience my friend. I teach road racing skills, not preach them.

You dont want the front compressed in a turn as it would leave little room for travel in the suspension. No travel no contact and compliance...... fall down and go boom. The suspension should be set when entering the corner. Dont be confusing the rooks here with advanced technique. They really just need to understand the basics first before you try to go Rossi on them.

Not flaming you but you were and are wrong

[96SNAKE/03RR]

I agree with what's been said by both of you guys.

For me, when I'm trail-braking, it's usually when I'm really pushing my limits out there. Without a doubt, I'm riding in a zone when that happens and going at a pretty fast clip.

As for the knee-dragging, it's good to practice it(on the track) but once you got it, it shouldn't be your priority. Getting through the corner as quickly, and safely as you can should be the goal. Most people here know I hang off like a mofo but this is so I keep the bike as upright as I can, while "feeling" the distance from the ground to guage and adjust my corner speed as I go through. Everyone has their own style but experimenting is the key and get good tires. Can't underestimate the importance of good equipment.

[Darkstar]

Originally Posted by hybrid

yeah sure, I knew about trail braking long ago and we are talking to someone who doesnt understand the concept of what front end dynamics are.

Trail brake all you want, I do but it isnt to keep the front end compressed. So you obviously dont understand either. You own some 250's so thats cool but the real reason for trail braking is you can scrub some speed off while leaned. That comes with experience my friend. I teach road racing skills, not preach them.

You dont want the front compressed in a turn as it would leave little room for travel in the suspension. No travel no contact and compliance...... fall down and go boom. The suspension should be set when entering the corner. Dont be confusing the rooks here with advanced technique. They really just need to understand the basics first before you try to go Rossi on them.

Not flaming you but you were and are wrong

i apparently wasn't clear enough.

i never said it's sole purpose was to keep the front end compressed. its obviously to help scrub off speed going into a corner. and you obviously dont want to go into a corner 100% brakes because you do need to have room for the suspension to travel. but when you do it right, as you let off the brakes your getting deeper into a corner and thus being more force on the bike so the shocks arent rebounding but you still will have travel because you dont have brakes applied all the way. i'm usually off the brakes, at most, halfway threw the corner and 50% at the apex, depending on the corner. so there is plenty of room for travel.

i understand how you dont want to confuse someone seeking knowledge with techniques that take years to learn (and as i said earlier im still perfecting my technique, and im sure some of the best are too) and thats cool. i should i have been more clear in what i was saying. but when you chimed in i just figured it would be more of a coversation between you and i.

and however fucked up my technique might be, it works. 2nd race ever i finished 6th, 1st aprilia to finish and first novice to finish. closest novice was 15th i belive.

Everyone has their own style but experimenting is the key and get good tires. Can't underestimate the importance of good equipment.

+100000

[Darkstar]

and i just realised how vague my posts have been my bad. and you're right, that technique is pretty messed up, for your average corner. i was thinking about a very tight corner at thill. the longer the corner the less i will trailbrake. i'm really bad at putting whats in my mind into words, so i will leave it to the brighter folks...lol

[bumblebee]

I have always approached corners to keep as high an angle as I can. I lean/come off the bike to keep the bike as upright as I can. More upright, more tire contact, less chance of tire sliding out from under. I don't lean or knee drag to show off. Personally, I try to avoid bodily contact with the pavement at all times when riding

[hybrid]

thanks for not blowing up on that one. Good judgement call. I admittably get a little testy when discussing riding technique. I must apologize as well for that.

I do however in fact teach the skills required to race. I have a guy right now that never rode a motorcycle in his life. I threw him on a pw50 for twenty minutes. Put him on a xr80 for twenty minutes to learn how the shifting worked. We got him a race bike, took him to a huge parking lot and in three hours he was dragging knee. I reserve track time all the time and do a one on one school with people.

I also take good club racers and prep them for ama nationals. I have raced for 11 years total now but took a five year break. I had shoulder surgery in feb and I run a three man team. I decided to race as much as I can for next year and look forward to knocking the rust off of me as I can. But my focus for the future is in new riders and fielding a successful team.

So good luck to you and everyone else who is going to compete this next year

[Darkstar]

Originally Posted by hybrid

I admittably get a little testy when discussing riding technique.

thats your problem right there different styles will suit person A better than person B. look at gibernau, he has one goofy ridin pos.

good luck with your future in racing and race team.

sorry to of hijacked your thread zyank. i hope you have gathered some good info though.

[Zyankaly]

wow... I din't check this thread for some time... thought only RSRCR would have posted something... now I have a look and watch this !!

I changed my technique by now and I notice this to be better.... I don't clutch it in corners anymore, I keep it at a mid rev so I can accelerate it rather easy out and then go to next gear... works better... however I still feel a bit unsecure while doing it like this, but I'll get used to it preaty soon and get it working even better.

Jup, there is some good info on this thread... I guess I'll have to study it a bit closer on the WE and see what I can add to my technique.