Learning theory, want advice on application - Page 3

SD40T-2 · 01-02-2008, 10:03 PM

I guess I can't win. I keep'em short and ppl say my posts don't make sense; try to explain in detail and I get hounded for long posts..... As Charlie Brown says: "Good grief!"

Oreo,

I ready your "resume" and at this point, something like that would be something I could only dream of. Perhaps I'm mentally sabotaging myself when I say this but I don't think I even know where "to begin to begin", if that makes sense.

Oh how I wish I could convince myself that I could actually do it.

SD

OreoGaborio · 01-02-2008, 10:44 PM

Oh dude trust me, what I've done really isn't all that much on the grand scheme of things compared to alot of my peers, but if you had asked me back in 2003 if I saw myself doing the things I've done I woulda laughed & said you were crazy.

Just take it one step at a time, homes

GreatOden'sR6Raven · 01-04-2008, 04:17 PM

ya id say the road to accomplishments starts small, begin with the basics and the rest will follow. I wouldn't ever think I'd play college lax as a new player my frosh year in HS until i was actually getting regular playing time my freshman year at ASU. Just go out there and get to work lol.

as to whoever posted that I should read twist II. that was the book i was referring to. I had assumed that 1 was outdated by II.

GSXR RACER MIKE · 01-04-2008, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatOden'sR6Raven

...as to whoever posted that I should read twist II. that was the book i was referring to. I had assumed that 1 was outdated by II.

Twist 1 , 2, & Soft Science of Roadracing are all different Keith Code books.

smashbox · 01-05-2008, 04:22 PM

personally i'm glad this thread started... i feel like i'm in the same spot as oden and really want to get out to the track but really don't know where to start.. i do know however that i want to get proper instruction as to what's going on out there and want to attend a school instead of an open track day free for all. i feel like i won't learn anything by just riding around a track to my own devices... i know there's a track in the poconos i just have to see if and when schools are held there for a weekend or so and how much they run.

GSXR RACER MIKE · 01-05-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smashbox

personally i'm glad this thread started... i feel like i'm in the same spot as oden and really want to get out to the track but really don't know where to start.. i do know however that i want to get proper instruction as to what's going on out there and want to attend a school instead of an open track day free for all. i feel like i won't learn anything by just riding around a track to my own devices... i know there's a track in the poconos i just have to see if and when schools are held there for a weekend or so and how much they run.

To be fair you could indeed take the Track Day to Racing route and be successful, but as the saying goes "Your milage will vary". Doing lap after lap on your own can actually get you faster, the biggest point I'm trying to make is the learning process itself. If your shown how to do something correctly and why it's important from the beginning, and then have your actual implementation of that technique critiqued out on the track by an instructor as to what your doing correct and what you should immediately change, your learning curve will probably be much faster. Ongoing constructive citique helps you to eliminate developing bad habits and have a solid foundation of skills from the beginning - you could possibly get that at a Track Day(s), but it depends greatly on the rules of that org and the individual 'coaches' you specifically end up with and how much individual attention they honestly invest in you. I'm certainly not trying to slam on Track Day 'coaches', many truely have a desire to see people improve, others do it because they want the 'free' track time in the advanced group and this is what they have to do to get it. Some 'coaches' even want to look like a hero because they taught you something early in your on-track riding 'career' that made you feel like you achieved something significant (like the late-braking incident I spoke of earlier in this thread which actually was progressively slowing the learners lap times - not improving them), in the bigger picture it's more of a handicap to developing corner speed by focusing on late-braking with an upcoming track rider/racer. As an example, in my opinion learning the braking capability of your bike for emergency purposes is very valuable experience, but it should be done seperately early in your riding experience. Developing faster and faster corner speed with progressively higher and higher corner entry speed first, THEN incorporating later and later braking is the route I think someones learning curve should take.

Uninstructed laps will bring improvements thru more of a 'trial and error' route, which can be valuable knowledge, but it can take ALOT longer, cost alot more money (and crashes/pain) to get to the same level of ability, and unfortunately also breed distrust in your bike when things "Just happen" for no obvious reason (knowing WHY something happened is extremely important, if you don't seek the answers as to why something actually happened you'll probably fall into the mentality of "If your not crashing, then your not trying hard enough" - which is really sad). In all my years of racing I've only had 3 racing crashes, 2 were because I was physically forced off the track by another racer, only 1 crash in my entire racing career was due to loss of traction (and that was due to using a front tire I knew was absolutely fried beyond the capability I was trying to get out of it - that was while passing for 3rd place at Road America in a National Expert race that had over 70 racers in it - needless to say I was pushing really hard in that race).

In my opinion I feel this general topic is a very strong need that must be addressed, people who want specific RACE instruction. Today these types of programs are very far and few between, I think the Track Day org's would be a great place to have a specifically designated class for people who want to get into racing. I think of many Track Days like Drivers Education today which gives you basic instruction, some minimal critiqued experience, then lets you get a Drivers License and throws you out into the madness of the streets to get experience thru uninstructed 'trial and error'. If your plan isn't to be out on the 'streets' like in this example, but on a race track actually racing, I think a person should follow a more instructed route thruout the entire learning process that is specifically targetted at racing.

I took the long route of 'trial and error', I thought I could do it all on my own when I 1st started and didn't seek the limited instruction that was available at that time by some of the race instructors. A knowledgable instructor would have not only taught me the things I needed to know out on the track, but almost more importantly could have helped me to understand the very real importance of bike set-up, especially correct springs and damping and emphasized getting them very early in my race experience (not waiting till my 3rd season of racing to get proper springs/damping after suffering thru 2 full seasons of a really bad handling bike - racewise that is).

volcom415 · 01-06-2008, 12:31 AM

You can learn a lot by riding your bike and learning lines...training your eyes to look ahead. Finding braking points, learning throttle maintenance, countersteering, and the list goes on.

read a book, focus on a specific topic that you want to work on and go from there

I think keith code is an excellent school...if you want to do a school as well as both reg and jason pridmore's schools...

Mike its funny how jaded you are against control riders or trackday folks...you manage to always mention that in your many elaborate posts....

OreoGaborio · 01-06-2008, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volcom415

Mike its funny how jaded you are against control riders or trackday folks...you manage to always mention that in your many elaborate posts....

I'll say.

Mike & I agree on a LOT of things... but track days aren't one of them. Maybe it's just because his experiences with Track Day orgs are very different from what I've experienced, but some of our opinions specifically about TD's couldn't be more different.

GSXR RACER MIKE · 01-06-2008, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volcom415

Mike its funny how jaded you are against control riders or trackday folks...you manage to always mention that in your many elaborate posts....

That comes from a personal history of having numerous people in positions of power/knowledge giving me advice as though it was written in stone and telling me it was correct (after telling me how what I felt was correct was actually wrong and in some cases being led to believe I was some kind of idiot for even thinking what I thought). The irony in so many of those situations is that my thoughts and suggestions are the ones that end up being correct and eventually implemented (often times by the very people who ridiculed my ideas in the 1st place). This exact situation happened just a week ago when suggestions I made (outside of motorcycles/racing) were ultimately treated as overkill and unneccesary, so far this week 1/2 of my original suggestions have been implemented, sadly one of the most important ideas will probably not be used because it's outside of the 'box' thinking that you have to have a really open mind to realize it's importance.

What amazes me is how so many people will do something purely because they are so stuck in a rut of thinking that they have trouble grasping anything else. I'm trying to bring suggestions from my point of view to the table for consideration by anyone reading this, I'm certainly not trying to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong, I just want new people to at least consider 'the other side of the story' in their decision making.

Your an established successful Expert racer who went the Track Day to Racing route and is a 'coach' at Track Days and the Kieth Code School, that's awesome! But that kind of success can be very circumstantial as well, it's based on you, the resources available to you, the people you came into contact with, the experiences you had during and prior to getting on a race track, and on and on - just because you had the success you've had doesn't mean others who follow that same basic route will achieve the same success. I don't hide the fact that I fall into the 'has been' catagory, but I have indeed still taken the journey myself, I just haven't done it recently.

Oreo and yourself both comes across as very passionate about teaching others in a Track Day environment, that's really cool and I respect both of you for your commitment and investment back into the sport. What I'm getting at is how is someone who's looking to race supposed to know when they are learning things from someone like yourselves at a Track Day, or someone who's freinds with the operator of the Track Day and has only done a limited number of days themselves? From what I've personally seen the beginner group is often given the coaches who have the least experience, to me that's a tragedy (no matter how well intentioned). I remember a discussion with a boss of mine years ago concerning training new apprentices, my complaint was that the person doing the training was fresh out of the apprenticeship himself. My boss then said "What do you think I should do, put one of my top guys in charge of training?" I said "Yes", he said he "couldn't afford to have a top guy spending time training apprentices", I said "I don't think you can afford NOT to!"

volcom415 · 01-06-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSXR RACER MIKE

That comes from a personal history of having numerous people in positions of power/knowledge giving me advice as though it was written in stone and telling me it was correct (after telling me how what I felt was correct was actually wrong and in some cases being led to believe I was some kind of idiot for even thinking what I thought). The irony in so many of those situations is that my thoughts and suggestions are the ones that end up being correct and eventually implemented (often times by the very people who ridiculed my ideas in the 1st place). This exact situation happened just a week ago when suggestions I made (outside of motorcycles/racing) were ultimately treated as overkill and unneccesary, so far this week 1/2 of my original suggestions have been implemented, sadly one of the most important ideas will probably not be used because it's outside of the 'box' thinking that you have to have a really open mind to realize it's importance.

What amazes me is how so many people will do something purely because they are so stuck in a rut of thinking that they have trouble grasping anything else. I'm trying to bring suggestions from my point of view to the table for consideration by anyone reading this, I'm certainly not trying to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong, I just want new people to at least consider 'the other side of the story' in their decision making.

Your an established successful Expert racer who went the Track Day to Racing route and is a 'coach' at Track Days and the Kieth Code School, that's awesome! But that kind of success can be very circumstantial as well, it's based on you, the resources available to you, the people you came into contact with, the experiences you had during and prior to getting on a race track, and on and on - just because you had the success you've had doesn't mean others who follow that same basic route will achieve the same success. I don't hide the fact that I fall into the 'has been' catagory, but I have indeed still taken the journey myself, I just haven't done it recently.

Oreo and yourself both comes across as very passionate about teaching others in a Track Day environment, that's really cool and I respect both of you for your commitment and investment back into the sport. What I'm getting at is how is someone who's looking to race supposed to know when they are learning things from someone like yourselves at a Track Day, or someone who's freinds with the operator of the Track Day and has only done a limited number of days themselves? From what I've personally seen the beginner group is often given the coaches who have the least experience, to me that's a tragedy (no matter how well intentioned). I remember a discussion with a boss of mine years ago concerning training new apprentices, my complaint was that the person doing the training was fresh out of the apprenticeship himself. My boss then said "What do you think I should do, put one of my top guys in charge of training?" I said "Yes", he said he "couldn't afford to have a top guy spending time training apprentices", I said "I don't think you can afford NOT to!"

Mike, its called learning...its is ultimately always up to the rider to filter out the BS(or what doesnt work for them) and the truth(or what does work for them)...that holds true for anything.

To me it seems as an insult to the novice trackday goer that they cant discern what may or may not work for them and to take the advise or suggestions as a grain of salt.

If it works great, if not figure out a way that works for them. Is there really a right or wong in anything mike?
So many variables that can be combined to work well where it just becomes a matter of "style"

I dont think you really know how trackdays run since you dont frequent them. Only one group of riders can be on track at a time....in our orgs, all the instructors are riding in each group...meaning we ride all day long. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses and play as a team to our strengths.

Mike as far as I know or have read the "other side of the story' that you always present has been just your story and your story alone.

The best thing you can do if you have a problem with how trackdays are run is to be a part of the solution. Try to find a org that may have the same beliefs or mentality that you have and see if you can help. If there are none, look at yourself and re-examine how you think and see if that is the root problem.

spy · 01-06-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volcom415

Mike, its called learning...its is ultimately always up to the rider to filter out the BS(or what doesnt work for them) and the truth(or what does work for them)...that holds true for anything.

To me it seems as an insult to the novice trackday goer that they cant discern what may or may not work for them and to take the advise or suggestions as a grain of salt.

If it works great, if not figure out a way that works for them. Is there really a right or wong in anything mike?
So many variables that can be combined to work well where it just becomes a matter of "style"

I dont think you really know how trackdays run since you dont frequent them. Only one group of riders can be on track at a time....in our orgs, all the instructors are riding in each group...meaning we ride all day long. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses and play as a team to our strengths.

Mike as far as I know or have read the "other side of the story' that you always present has been just your story and your story alone.

The best thing you can do if you have a problem with how trackdays are run is to be a part of the solution. Try to find a org that may have the same beliefs or mentality that you have and see if you can help. If there are none, look at yourself and re-examine how you think and see if that is the root problem.

It seems to me that Mike has good intentions, but I gotta say I agree with Volcom.

.....take advice with a grain of salt, " Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. "

Having done a few track days, I can tell you there's a lot of good people out there willing/wanting to help out track noobs and wannabe racers. Mike, sounds like you might have met a few bad apples along the way and it just spoiled the whole track day experience for you. Don't let your bad experience sway you into thinking all track day organizations are the same.

When I think of "track days" and "control riders", it makes me all warm and fuzzy. LOL!