Tell me about trail braking...

[Jim Moore]

My braking / turn entry sucks. My technique has been to brake / downshift at the same time, then off the brakes and into the turn. I can't seem to make a smooth transition between braking and getting the bike leaned over. I have been reading a little bit about trail braking and I thought I'd give it a try at my next trackday to see if it could help smooth things out.

OK, so I'm approaching the turn. I have managed to get to the correct gear, and I'm on the brakes, getting ready to turn in. Is it simply a matter of easing the brake pressure slowly as I lean the bike into the turn? When do you get off the brakes and on the gas?

I'd appreciate any advice,

[OreoGaborio]

the further you lean, the less pressure you put on the lever.... that's it in a nutshell.

Here's an article that might help. Read the whole thing. It's a good basic overview on all types of techniques.

http://www.foreven.com/trackdod/NoviceGuide/

Obviously there's alot more to it than explained in that article, but i'm a firm believer of getting a good grasp of the basics before getting more in depth.

[itch808]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Here's an article that might help. Read the whole thing. It's a good basic overview on all types of techniques.

Nice link, especially the part on posture and lean angle. Most of that stuff carries over from cages, weight transfer, friction circle, type I/II/III corners, etc. Been racing cages for a couple years now but have yet to try the bike.

[Jim Moore]

That was freakin' cool. Thanks.

[velocity bmg]

Trail braking is using the rear, (and front) brakes to slow down when you
have entered a corner a bit hot, and are committed to it, (meaning leaning already).

Done correctly, it can save your ass.

Done excellently, it can make the difference between passing someone and not.

All these guys who say to use the front brake only are usually 2-5 year experienced riders, all they have ridden on is pristine race tracks, and are
mis-informed.

It's an art, one of which I am not an expert at, but I am pretty damn good at using trailing to correct lines in corners, ones I have not experienced before,
when I go in a bit hot.

I have years, and years, and years, of street/sport experience so my opinion has some validity to it.

A light...very light and quick touch to the rear brake especially in a corner,
can bring things back in line quite nicely.

A lead footed stomp into a 90-100 corner can make you crash.

You have to know, and practice the difference.

[Mantis]

Originally Posted by velocity bmg

Trail braking is using the rear, (and front) brakes to slow down when you
have entered a corner a bit hot, and are committed to it, (meaning leaning already).

Done correctly, it can save your ass.

Done excellently, it can make the difference between passing someone and not.

All these guys who say to use the front brake only are usually 2-5 year experienced riders, all they have ridden on is pristine race tracks, and are
mis-informed.

It's an art, one of which I am not an expert at, but I am pretty damn good at using trailing to correct lines in corners, ones I have not experienced before,
when I go in a bit hot.

I have years, and years, and years, of street/sport experience so my opinion has some validity to it.

A light...very light and quick touch to the rear brake especially in a corner,
can bring things back in line quite nicely.

A lead footed stomp into a 90-100 corner can make you crash.

You have to know, and practice the difference.

Completely wrong man, not trying to flame ya but that is certainly not the definition of trail braking. Thats simply using the brakes midcorner. Trail braking is staying on the brakes till the apex while decreasing the pressure on the lever as lean angle increases.

[OreoGaborio]

yup... Trail braking has NOTHING to do with which brake you use. NONE AT ALL.
And if it has to do with entering too hot, then I guess I enter just about every single corner on the race track "too hot".

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by Mantis

Completely wrong man, not trying to flame ya but that is certainly not the definition of trail braking. Thats simply using the brakes midcorner. Trail braking is staying on the brakes till the apex while decreasing the pressure on the lever as lean angle increases.

Oh really? Maybe I have misunderstood the term. Maybe I didn't express fully what I was trying to get across.

In either case...

What I was getting at is judicial use of "trail braking", "mid-corner braking", what have you, as in cases when you have to use the brakes after already committed to a corner.

Ideally, you would always enter every corner at the perfect speed, no brakes required until braking for the next one. But, even the best blow a corner.

Like Rossi in the wet at Donington, or Schumacher in F1 on the 63rd lap of a 65 lap race.

Maybe they should call it trailing off braking to avoid confusion.

Especially for us pedestrian riders.

Appreciate the heads up on that.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

yup... Trail braking has NOTHING to do with which brake you use. NONE AT ALL.
And if it has to do with entering too hot, then I guess I enter just about every single corner on the race track "too hot".

My instructor on my track day said that was the only real thing I was doing wrong. I was "charging corners". Kind of the same thing.

I ran off the track a short distance in the no braking session. No crash, just
pretended I was back on my dirt bike for a few yards, made a quick U,
checked the track for a clear re-entry, and carried on.

Anyhoo...back on topic...

[OreoGaborio]

Racers trail brake into almost EVERY corner, not just corners they went into too hot. It's a necessary skill to learn in racing as you're using it for almost every corner.

If you watch on-board video of a racer's right hand (sometimes they'll have those sweet angles in MotoGP coverage) you'll see a racer get hard on the brakes, begin to turn in and stay on the brakes almost all the way to the apex. They'll "trail off" the brakes the further they lean and assuming they did it right, as soon as they're off the brakes they'll get right back on the gas.

I do this in every turn that requires a substancial amount of braking at NHIS.... Turns 1, a little for 2, 3, 6, a little in 9, 11, and a little bit for 11a if needed. Almost no braking at all is required in the rest of the turns as you're accelerating through them or just kinda rolling off the gas.

If you do a google search for NHIS & find a track map, then search Youtube for some on-board video it'll make more sense once you see exactly what I mean. There's a really good video of a Jason Pridmore STAR school instuctor going around NHIS that has throttle & braking force displayed, you can see how much trail braking he does, it's pretty neat.

Also, check out the link I posted above. It's an interesting read.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Racers trail brake into almost EVERY corner, not just corners they went into too hot. It's a necessary skill to learn in racing as you're using it for almost every corner.

If you watch on-board video of a racer's right hand (sometimes they'll have those sweet angles in MotoGP coverage) you'll see a racer get hard on the brakes, begin to turn in and stay on the brakes almost all the way to the apex. They'll "trail off" the brakes the further they lean and assuming they did it right, as soon as they're off the brakes they'll get right back on the gas.

I do this in every turn that requires a substancial amount of braking at NHIS.... Turns 1, a little for 2, 3, 6, a little in 9, 11, and a little bit for 11a if needed. Almost no braking at all is required in the rest of the turns as you're accelerating through them or just kinda rolling off the gas.

If you do a google search for NHIS & find a track map, then search Youtube for some on-board video it'll make more sense once you see exactly what I mean. There's a really good video of a Jason Pridmore STAR school instuctor going around NHIS that has throttle & braking force displayed, you can see how much trail braking he does, it's pretty neat.

Also, check out the link I posted above. It's an interesting read.

Hmm...I will check it out.

Thanks Oreo.

[velocity bmg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnSQx8cNMyE

Still looking for NHIS vid.

This vid at Road America shows what I always thought was just normal braking.

This is how I try and brake for every turn...when applicable.

He brakes just a little as his lean begins, but lets off as he commits to full lean.

Every track is different though.

I need to read a book of terms to communicate with you racer dudes.

This second one shows a bit more of what Oreo is talking about...

uh-huh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrn2INXniBc

[velocity bmg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N84aRiNaods

This one really shows it. And what a featureless track. You'd have to do 100 laps to get this track memorized. No trees...yard markings...blades of grass.

Jeez...

How about a link to NIHS vid. I can't find the damn thing anywhere.

[OreoGaborio]

Damn my employers.... youtube is blocked at work

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Damn my employers.... youtube is blocked at work

Tell them you gotta jet and show some newb wtf is up.

Well, after watching that...I gotta go ride.

Have that link up to the on-board by the time I get back. You have...approx...2.5 hours. Hehe...