Technique? "Crossed up"

[velocity bmg]

I have been practicing hanging off nearly everywhere I go...whether I need to or not, since my first track day and people telling me that I should practice that technique.

The things I have learned:

1. On some familiar twisty roads, the speeds I used to carry through the turns,
while I was sitting straight up on the bike, are now way too slow, and I often find myself not carrying enough speed now, and almost falling inside the turn.

Meaning, not falling down, but actually steering towards the grass towards the inside.

I now realize that hanging off is to make you need to lean the bike LESS, and therefore give yourself more room for speed, and to make the fastest speed, which is done when the bike is pointed north and south.


Things I am unsure of.


I notice alot of Moto GP guys, especially when they show certain camera angles, they seem to be crossed up, as in their shoulders and chest are not
parallel to the windscreen or handlebars. They are kind of twisted looking.

What's up with that?

Thanks...and if anyone/everyone could give an example of a certain type of corner and what their body position would be...that would be truly cool.

[kevin_stevens]

Originally Posted by velocity bmg

I have been practicing hanging off nearly everywhere I go...whether I need to or not, since my first track day and people telling me that I should practice that technique.

The things I have learned:

1. On some familiar twisty roads, the speeds I used to carry through the turns, while I was sitting straight up on the bike, are now way too slow, and I often find myself not carrying enough speed now, and almost falling inside the turn.

Meaning, not falling down, but actually steering towards the grass towards the inside.

I now realize that hanging off is to make you need to lean the bike LESS, and therefore give yourself more room for speed, and to make the fastest speed, which is done when the bike is pointed north and south.


Things I am unsure of.


I notice alot of Moto GP guys, especially when they show certain camera angles, they seem to be crossed up, as in their shoulders and chest are not
parallel to the windscreen or handlebars. They are kind of twisted looking.

What's up with that?

Thanks...and if anyone/everyone could give an example of a certain type of corner and what their body position would be...that would be truly cool.

Yes, I practice hanging off on the street as well, only moving my butt a little to mark that step in the process. I have the same issue with falling into the turn; just means you're doing things right and going damn slow. Since that's my purpose, I don't really care how squidly it looks. I think there's a lot of value, and no particular risk, in getting as much time controlling the bike in a proper cornering position as possible. I think of it mentally as "getting into the sidecar"

To your other point, "crossed up" means your head/shoulders/hips are pointed to the *outside* of the turn. "Proper" form has you point all three: chin, shoulder, and hips, toward the corner exit. So you aren't actually facing forward (except on a *really* long sweeper, like ThunderHill turn 1), you're turned to face to the inside of the turn to a greater or lesser extent. That's not crossed-up.

Another example of crossed-up that helps a lot of people is to image a right-handed quarterback running left and twisting around to throw right. That's crossed-up.

KeS

[velocity bmg]

[quote=kevin_stevens]

Yes, I practice hanging off on the street as well, only moving my butt a little to mark that step in the process. I have the same issue with falling into the turn; just means you're doing things right and going damn slow. Since that's my purpose, I don't really care how squidly it looks. I think there's a lot of value, and no particular risk, in getting as much time controlling the bike in a proper cornering position as possible. I think of it mentally as "getting into the sidecar"

I usually go through too slowly when it's a new corner, or the first one of the day.

Hey, I always go back through until I start to feel the tires wiggling like at the point of grip and no grip.

In fact, in right hand turns I have no more chicken strips.
Still working on that 1/4 inch left side...

To your other point, "crossed up" means your head/shoulders/hips are pointed to the *outside* of the turn. "Proper" form has you point all three: chin, shoulder, and hips, toward the corner exit. So you aren't actually facing forward (except on a *really* long sweeper, like ThunderHill turn 1), you're turned to face to the inside of the turn to a greater or lesser extent. That's not crossed-up.

Another example of crossed-up that helps a lot of people is to image a right-handed quarterback running left and twisting around to throw right. That's crossed-up.

KeS

Best, and is it any surprise, the simplest explanation of "crossed up" I have heard.

Appreciated.

[Misfire]

This is crossed up.




This isn't.



.

[Pasha471]

In my experience, when a Control Rider or Coach says "crossed up" they mean that you are pivoting your hips and keeping your spine straight. As you get faster and get deeper lean angle, while not correcting your body position, a crash will become inevitable.

You should be weighting the pegs, sliding your trunk off the seat, put your head where the mirror would be and pivot your inside foot in the corresponding turn.

When you think you're hanging off the bike, move another inch or two. Also, use your pictures at your trackday as a tool. You'd be surprised.

In the beginning I always thought, wow, I'm really hangin off this beotch Then I would look at my pics and be like, damn, I'm straight up and down and all crossed up .

Keep practicing! You'll get it

[cajunTLR]

I know how you feel. I used to be crossed up aswell. I don't exactly know where I learned it from as I did it when I first started. But..........the way I fixed it was; getting my head near my mirror or where my mirror used to be. And just leaning off wayyyyy too far to get used to the positioning. Try that and see if it works.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by Misfire

This is crossed up.




This isn't.



.

Aha...Thanks Mis.

Those two pics alone are worth a billion words. Got the message.

Excuse me while I run out and practice on my fave little run, (405).

When I am conscious of it, I think...I have the proper position of number 2 pic.

When just being lackadaisical...I know I look like the first one a bit.

Gotta cut that out.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by Pasha471

As you get faster and get deeper lean angle, while not correcting your body position, a crash will become inevitable.

When you think you're hanging off the bike, move another inch or two. Also, use your pictures at your trackday as a tool. You'd be surprised.

In the beginning I always thought, wow, I'm really hangin off this beotch Then I would look at my pics and be like, damn, I'm straight up and down and all crossed up .

Keep practicing! You'll get it

Thanks Pash...gonna go do some practice...back in a a bit.

At the bold...

Yes, I am probably being like that too.

Damnit!!!!!!

I am going to correct this shit post haste.

Thanks all...back in a bit.

[velocity bmg]

Ok...made it in just before the rain.

Three of the main turns of this good tarmac, 3 mile section of desolate road.

Turn 1 has about a 1/4+ run up to it.

I enter towards the outside of my side of the road...braking done long before I set the final

entry speed and gear, and these are dependant on other factors.

(Traffic coming through the other way...dusty/wind blown day? my personal amount of

Godhead anger)

Just a bit ago, I made sure to enter the turn with 1 + 1/8 of my butt hanging off.

Like Pash said, "think you are leaning and hanging off?...do a little more."

Since this turn was cambered towards the benefit of the rider, my knee didn't drag

as the center line is some 4 feet lower than the highest outside portion of the turn.

I made sure I squared my shoulders, head, and torso the same way you positon your head

while going through a turn.

Go where you look...look where you are going.


Outside-inside-slow drift to outside is how I line the turn.


My last coupla' runs I had some nice, very brief, but pretty feeling rear wheel sliding

across the grain of the road.

Not the end coming around on me...just a natural gliding type feeling.


I was going about 90% of what I thought to be a safe pace for a public road.


It felt beautiful. (Big smile inside helmuut)

I made sure I was squared up, but I also noticed I was kind of climbing the tank, or

positioned well towards it.


I also noticed my butt and leg falling across the center line, when I knew there was no traffic

oncoming. (You can see through the entire turn, and a quarter mile beyond it.)


I'd have to see pics of course...but I think I got this thing moving in the right direction here.


BRB...coffee.

[velocity bmg]

Turns 2,3,and 4.

There is about a 1/3 mile long straight lead up into these corners coming from
the first turn.

These are slower, sharper, and have a great elevation change dropping I would guess...5-6 stories from the entrance of 2 down
through the entrance of 4 into (not shown) turn 5a we'll call it.

Turn 4 has a sharply decreasing radius...not far different from the lowest turn on the small track at MSR.

(I overcooked this turn second to the last time through, and if I'd panicked and become a deer in the headlights...well...
wouldn't have been fun.)

Instead I kept leaning further and flicking the front brake off to on to off,
to scrub off as much speed as I could.

Doing a BMG version of anti-lock brakes.

I made it. My heart sped up a little. I laughed though...after it was over...then cursed in my helmut for making the mistake in the first place.

I'd have to see video..pics something to verify or correct proper technique.

This section of the road is as technical as anything on the small track at MSR or the small track at ECR.

Demands that you just get through it as fast as you can and come out the other side.

Little camber to turn 2...then almost flat by the time you get to 4.

Great section...

[velocity bmg]

Turn 5 comes after a bridge and directly after turns 2,3,4,5a.

It's kind of like turn 1, but a right hander, and more flat, not as much speedway
type camber.

I notice cars, and would you believe SUV's of all things enter this turn way
too fast and have to slam the brakes on. (Dumbasses...cleanse the gene pool though.)

This is a strange turn...can't really get an immediate feel for it and it feels different each time you go through.

I don;t like this turn...as there always seems to be that chalky type dust on the turn. There is a cement mixing plant about a mile up the road which explains it.

Turns 6 and 7...about 3/4 mile lead up to this set of turns, so if it's early Sunday morning and quiet, this is the place to get your top speed fix.

Turns 6 and 7...slight uphill as you go through, about a story, a real seat slider as the turns are short and quick.

Fun...and that's the end of my current fave back road.

After that, I make a U-turn and head back through again...the opposite way.

[velocity bmg]

Sorry for the book...and I don;t know what I accomplished in posting it. I was trying to give you an idea of where I am at riding wise.

Anyway, I know I need to see some pics, so either 8-13-2007 I'll get some
taken at Elite, (MSR) or go out to a fave spot and have someone take some pics.

The last few descriptions really helped though as far as what crossed up
actually is, and the little comment about it's detrimental to reaching the real peak speeds of the l33t. (sorry former Q3A junkie)

Anyway, any other input appreciated.

[Woodyracing]

body positioning is almost entirely personal preference
some "kiss the mirrors" others keep their head directly above the gas tank for sense of balance.
Look at any form of pro racing and you'll see people going faster than you can imagine riding "incorrectly" according to some. Watch Larry pegram, his lower body hangs way off but his head is always on the opposite side of the gas tank, yet he still goes faster than you or I could ever imagine. Doohan was the same way and he did pretty well in the racing thing

Then you've got Ben Spies/John Hopkins type of style that is very aggressive and angular, almost as if your trying to push your head towards the ground. Then there is the Colin Edwards/Jamie Hacking types that stick their head out/up rather than down/forward

The average style is a compromise between all of them, keeping your head inside and a little down but not too extreme.

Its one of those things that you have to figure out for yourself whats gonna work for you. You can go talk to Freddie Spencer, Kevin Schwantz, Keith Code, etc and wind up with completely opposite opinions on how to do the same thing.

Now that said, the basis of leaning off is to get your weight down low and off the inside of the bike, we're just talking about the 500 different ways to do it.

Keep doin the trackdays and find out what feels comfortable for you, try some different things and if it doesn't feel right after a few sessions try something else.

when your "in the zone" your working off of instincts. If your having to fight against your instincts going into every corner, you'll never get comfortable going fast, and you'll definitely never be able to be consistent.