Downshift question(blipping the throttle)

[Tye]

I have been riding track for the past 1.5 years or so primarily track days and member days. I have only ridden my '06 GSXR 750 during this events. I know the bike has a slipper clutch and I find myself using this way too much. I have made it a habit to slowly let out the clutch during the downshifts and sometimes the back tire still brakes loose. I have tried blipping the throttle to increase the rpm's while downshifting but I find it hard to do during heavy braking. Are there any words of wisdom y'all might have to help me with this. During street riding I have kept the throttle partially open during downshifts and this reduces the amount of chassis upset. But while on the track, you are obviously running alot high RPMs and you can't keep an open throttle at 11,000 rpms and still brake.

Do y'all drop all the gears you need at one time? For instance you get the bike up to 4th on a straight and you have a hair pin corner coming up and you want to be in 2nd before you turn in. Do you pull in the clutch,drop the 2 gears,blip the throttle and let out the clutch prior to turn in?

I still seem to have alot on my mind during this whole transition(like Kieth codes reference to money. It seems like I'm now using all my money to get this done correctly. I no longer have to think about braking markers,setting up,getting off the bike etc.)

Can y'all walk me though what y'all do while coming down a long straight and getting ready for a hair pin turn.

Any input would be appreciated.

[Iceman_954rr]

I have the same issue under hard braking...with your front brake engaged it's hard to get that "crisp" blip that you need at higher rpm's to make the downshift smooth.

I am interested to hear what the more experienced guys say because what I do now is seperate the two

Brake for the corner
1/2 brakes Blip & Clutch
Trail brake into the corner and off as I add throttle

You need to blip and clutch once for each gear.

As I am still relatively new to track riding I map out every corner and points in every corner.

Markers I personally use:

Brakes
Downshifts
Set up
Drop in
Throttle

I use these many markers though so I can adjust my technique and get faster by moving the points around.

Just the way I do it in my head in combination with instruction from the more experienced guys I ride with.

Edit: Another tip is to do these things in the back of your mind. Dont let your mind get cluttered or you're going to make a mistake. Try to clear your mind for a run...dont think yourself through the corners...just set your points, ride and react...everything else should come naturally at this point in the game.

Just my newb .02.

[RRRR6]

Originally Posted by Tye

Do y'all drop all the gears you need at one time?

Can y'all walk me though what y'all do while coming down a long straight and getting ready for a hair pin turn.

I don't drop all the gears at once. It's always one at a time.

Coming down a long straight (a sixth gear straight).....

I am throttle wide open in full tuck, when I come to my brake marker, I raise off the tank and I am very briefly no throttle and on the brakes HARD. When I quickly reach mid range (10K) rpms in sixth, I begin the cycle of on the brakes hard with throttle blips and downshifts. While doing these downshifts I'm not even looking at the tach. It's down by feel and sound (one of the reasons I don't wear earplugs). This is done until I reach my appropriate corner entrance speed and beginning getting off the side of the bike and looking through the turn.

You should be able to be on the brakes while 'blipping' the throttle at the same time. It's the same in a car on the track (heal/toe).

[OreoGaborio]

one at a time for me and I always blip while braking... it's an aquired skill... tough to master but worth working on it.

I use this skill every time I'm on a bike & I've gotten pretty good at it. I dont always get it perfect, but i can't remember the last time I made the rear wheel skip & hop from a bad downshift while braking hard.... and although it's a hugely debated topic, I regularly downshift without the clutch. (but not while leaned way over).

heh, interesting moment on Monday was when I was riding my street bike at a track day & went into turn 3 at NHIS pretty hot. I got on the brakes harder than normal & slid forward in my seat a little more than usual (still recovering from a broken left wrist so I was trying to put as little force on it as possible). This obviously caused my center of gravity to move forward and as I grabbed a downshift, my RPM's actually went DOWN even though I never touched the clutch lever.... it went to idle, stayed there and THEN came back up... it was then I realized i floated my rear tire for a good 50-100 feet.

Didn't get outta shape & I didn't even feel it come back into contact w/ the ground... stayed perfectly straight & touched down so smooth that I didn't even know it happened until it was over. Don't think I could ever do that again if I tried.

[Elistan]

I've practiced blipping the throttle, but have difficulty activating the throttle without changing the pressure on the brake lever. When I rotate my hand, I end up dragging my fingers back and therefore brake harder during the blip...

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Originally Posted by Elistan

I've practiced blipping the throttle, but have difficulty activating the throttle without changing the pressure on the brake lever. When I rotate my hand, I end up dragging my fingers back and therefore brake harder during the blip...

A common mistake many people make is to 'GRIP' the handle bars while braking, what this does is transfer your body weight into the bike at a point very high up and far forward on the bike and most often causes the front end suspension to dive down. Another issue with 'gripping' the bars is that it can cause forearm 'pump' and cause your grip to get weaker as you ride, when done correctly you should be able to control the motorcycle under braking without actually 'gripping' the bars (you could actually have your fingers relaxed and off of the grip and just 'crotch' the grip with your thumb and index finger). What I was taught a long time ago was that under braking you should transfer your body weight into the bike at the lowest point possible, scooting back on the seat and 'gripping' the gas tank with your legs helps to keep your bodies weight transfer further back and lower on the bike (this is the reason on some racebikes you'll see some type of traction adding surface along the sides of the gas tank, many are rubber pads with raised bumps). When you learn to stop transfering your body weight into the handlebars you should be able to develop better throttle control while braking because your arms should be loose (not stiff) and no longer be relying on 'gripping' the throttle to stop your body from sliding forward.

With your arms loose you'll find it's alot easier to control the brake lever and throttle at the same time, it takes some practice to develop this and make it a habit ANYTIME you ride a motorcycle, but once you do it will make your riding easier and more controlled.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by Tye

I have been riding track for the past 1.5 years or so primarily track days and member days. I have only ridden my '06 GSXR 750 during this events. I know the bike has a slipper clutch and I find myself using this way too much. I have made it a habit to slowly let out the clutch during the downshifts and sometimes the back tire still brakes loose. I have tried blipping the throttle to increase the rpm's while downshifting but I find it hard to do during heavy braking. Are there any words of wisdom y'all might have to help me with this. During street riding I have kept the throttle partially open during downshifts and this reduces the amount of chassis upset. But while on the track, you are obviously running alot high RPMs and you can't keep an open throttle at 11,000 rpms and still brake.

Do y'all drop all the gears you need at one time? For instance you get the bike up to 4th on a straight and you have a hair pin corner coming up and you want to be in 2nd before you turn in. Do you pull in the clutch,drop the 2 gears,blip the throttle and let out the clutch prior to turn in?

I still seem to have alot on my mind during this whole transition(like Kieth codes reference to money. It seems like I'm now using all my money to get this done correctly. I no longer have to think about braking markers,setting up,getting off the bike etc.)

Can y'all walk me though what y'all do while coming down a long straight and getting ready for a hair pin turn.

Any input would be appreciated.

Don't know if I am the one to offer advice to someone more advanced that myself. But, one thing that will help you, least it helps me, is to blip the throttle, down shift, all the while easing the brakes on. one-two finger front braking. Sometimes you'll want to let off the brakes in between the largest jumps between gears just a bit.

If you do try it, it really will put all components of your bike at equal task to slowing you down smoothly.

Anyway, good luck.

Hmm...read the other posts...seems I'm not the only down shifting, brake using guy.

Good, now en something screws up, there are others to blame.

Let's me off the hook.

[Mmelmann]

It really comes down to practice, practice, practice. When I was initially trying to get proficient with the practice, it was like I was riding a bucking bronco and I looked stupid. I was trying to do it under light braking applications... and it made things harder to perfect. Then I figured something out... maintaining a constant brake lever force gets easier the harder you pull (does that make sense?) In other words, as you pull harder on the lever, the calipers are less sensitive to light touch applications of your fingers... it takes harder pulls to make the same jolts of stopping power that you experience under light brake attempts. Sooooo, it makes blipping the throttle while simultaneously braking an easier task. The same thing goes with heel toe downshifts on a car. The faster I'm driving into a corner, the harder I'm braking, and heel toe downshifts are easier to execute.

Once you get it down under hard braking... it gets easier with light braking applications. At least that's what worked for me. I always practice it during my daily commute reguardless of what I'm driving... be it my car or bike. Daily practice makes perfect. Soon you will be able to do it with a feather like touch. There's no other real secret other than practice.

[velocity bmg]

Originally Posted by Mmelmann

It really comes down to practice, practice, practice. When I was initially trying to get proficient with the practice, it was like I was riding a bucking bronco and I looked stupid. I was trying to do it under light braking applications... and it made things harder to perfect. Then I figured something out... maintaining a constant brake lever force gets easier the harder you pull (does that make sense?) In other words, as you pull harder on the lever, the calipers are less sensitive to light touch applications of your fingers... it takes harder pulls to make the same jolts of stopping power that you experience under light brake attempts. Sooooo, it makes blipping the throttle while simultaneously braking an easier task. The same thing goes with heel toe downshifts on a car. The faster I'm driving into a corner, the harder I'm braking, and heel toe downshifts are easier to execute.

Once you get it down under hard braking... it gets easier with light braking applications. At least that's what worked for me. I always practice it during my daily commute reguardless of what I'm driving... be it my car or bike. Daily practice makes perfect. Soon you will be able to do it with a feather like touch. There's no other real secret other than practice.

So, basically what you are saying and I think you are absolutely correct, is that if you are multi-tasking at the controls it's better to let the brake be held harder as that way any down-shifts, bumps, or just plain ham-handedness won't cause to the brake pressure to variate so much.

Did I say I thought you were right?

I don;t know you that well, and for all I know around a 1 minute circuit you are 59 seconds up a lap on me.

But...as you are downshifting, and braking you want to have the majority of your hard braking done before you get to the corner.

Just thinking about it, but I, and take this as a tip from a long time rider, unproven on the track, with a big mouth, and ego to match. Proud? You bet I am.

Most of the time, I do my hardest braking on the first 2-3 down shifts, then start easing off or let off completely.

I was just reading an article about Schwantz, and he says the brake should be let off more slowly and easier than it was pulled in.


If you are doing 100mph, approaching a 90 degree right hander, course is 20 feeet wide, with the camber on your side, I would say start downshifting slowly, and easing on the brake a bit harder...little by little at about the "100 metre" mark.

By the time you have entered the throat of the turn, you should have entry speed, gear selection, both for the corner and whatever comes after in mind or in practice, and begin letting off the last touches of brake just as you begin to lean in. By the time you know you are turning there should be no brakes on, throttle warblig...waiting...and depending, maybe even opening slightly.

That's my last 3 cents...I'm flat busted...NEXT!

[Ivan_markII]

--turn your idle way up
--go down one gear at a time
--don't backshift at some insane RPM; instead let the rpm drop down more than what seems right
--if it's a trackday don't worry too much about trail braking; instead concentrate flicking the bike into the turn extremely quick
--consider getting an ABS bike
--appreciate your slipper clutch

[Tye]

Thanks guys for all of the input. I'm gonna try some of the tips on my next track day. I think I'm gripping the bars too much even though I'm trying to keep a light hand on them.

[serpentracer]

would a throttle turn mod help with this? since you dont have to turn it as far etc..

[velocity bmg]

Tye, I thought you were about ready for the Expert class.

I've heard you ride, seen your vids, and how you shout at slower guys to get the fuck outta the way.

Go race man.

[Tye]

Tye, I thought you were about ready for the Expert class.

I've heard you ride, seen your vids, and how you shout at slower guys to get the fuck outta the way.

Go race man.

There is always things that need to be learned and perfected. You can always go around a track fast but it doesn't mean you are doing it right. You will find Velocity, that when you start pushing it harder on the track, you don't have alot of time to make corrections and things seem to happen in milliseconds unstead of seconds. Blipping the throttle or keeping the throttle partial open during down shifts while street riding seems to be a hell of a lot easier than on the track. Yes you can practice it on the street, but that is at a slower pace and you have time to think about it.

I was running 1:13s on the track that you ran on your first track day. Doug on his motard is running around 1:12s. However, there is always room for improvement. And throttle control is one I have yet to master. Besides, I don't see myself being a racer...cost too much money and takes up alot of time that I don't have.