Lines through a corner

velocity bmg · 07-02-2007, 01:34 AM

This is a very crude and incomplete drawing...meaning no measurement of tarmac length...conditions...speed of bike...etc.

But...

There are three lines I see at a brief glance to take...

The green line represents the "ideal" point to point clipping of the apex...sharpest point of the corner and most direct...and theoretically fastest way through.

The blue line represents carrying a bit more speed late into, and throughout the corner..but still with the idea of point to point.

The yellow line represents a more point and shoot approach. Maybe braked too late...or had to do some late braking...

This look remotely correct to you more experienced guys?

I know you can't really get accurate...super accurate feedback or ideas...from the drawing...

But...in general...correct...yes?

OreoGaborio · 07-02-2007, 12:01 PM

yellow line crap
blue line crap
green line good

Regarding the yellow & blue lines, you'd never intentionally turn-in that late into the 1st turn. I'd rather blow the turn than turn in that late & still hug the inside. You're opening the door huge for a pass up the inside, and you're making for a very big intersection at a very undesirable point (RIGHT at the apex, where the rider on the green line is at max lean angle) which is incredibly dangerous.

RRRR6 · 07-02-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

yellow line crap
blue line crap
green line good

I agree

and what's that from??
and what are you asking?? it seems like you knew the answer...

Ivan_markII · 07-02-2007, 04:13 PM

No one line is perfect. Some bikes should use one line and other bikes should use a different line. It's always a trade-off.

Rather than puzzle this out why not just find a fast and safe rider on the same bike as you, and follow behind him to see which line he uses? Faster riders are fast because they can do stuff better than you so they are a great source of information.

That being said, there's also a tremendous difference between a track day and a race day. Track days encourage fast flick-ins into the turn using moderate braking; race days reward those who can brake hard into the turn. They are two entirely different styles of riding.

Woodyracing · 07-02-2007, 06:32 PM

the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, barring track quirks like camber, bumps, etc and without considering what kind of corner comes next thats pretty much the rule for picking a line, so yeah obviously the green line is the straightest and therefor the fastest

I would have to disagree about learning your lines by following someone faster than you, if somebody is fast enough to have a perfect line every time then somebody that doesn't even know yet how to pick a line won't be able to keep up with them anyway. Especially with Novice club racers (this includes myself), being "fast" doesn't make you an instructor. Ed Bargy makes a point in all of his lectures that he sees "fast" novice racers taking stupid lines at a certain section at Jennings. They aren't going fast there because they know what they're doing, instead they are making up for their lack of experience/knowledge with over agressive riding

I've got a great picture of me from my first year of trackdays leaned way the hell over, nearly dragging an elbow. Small problem... I was way off line so it doesn't matter how far I'm leaned over or how fast I'm going around the corner, somebody could carry less lean angle on the right line and make the corner much faster than me.

Philbie · 07-02-2007, 07:29 PM

At some point in a race I could see all those lines actually having a use. Depending on if you are trying to set someone up for a pass, trying to prevent someone from making a pass, or exploiting a strength that you may have whether it's braking or exiting.

Woodyracing · 07-02-2007, 07:43 PM

good point, making a pass changes everything

OreoGaborio · 07-02-2007, 07:55 PM

in response to the "following faster people" subject... most people's hang-ups when they're trying to go faster isn't line selection, but confidence in the bike, tires etc. Often times, being led by a faster rider is the key to unlocking some speed they didn't know they had in them. Even if the person they're following doesn't have perfect lines, that confidence helps the "student" pick up their cornerspeed....

In a sense you could say lines can be re-learned, cornerspeed is forever.

In a passing scenario, if you combine the green line w/ the yellow line at the apex of the first turn, that would make for a good passing opportunity at "turn 3"... the turn that's not in the picture. But you probably wouldn't want to hold such a tight line exiting the 2nd turn like the yellow line shows.

I still wouldn't want use the yellow or blue line as depicted, regardless of the scenario unless i'm in the act of avoiding something dangerous. They're too far off line to be beneficial in any normal situation.

Philbie · 07-02-2007, 08:09 PM

Note: I've only skimmed some of the posts on this topic but the following a faster rider thing is something I'd like to comment on.

I spend alot of my time working with newer riders. I teach the licensing school at the series I race with. It's not uncommon for some of the newer riders to be 20+ seconds a lap slower.

One thing I've noticed is that lines change as the pace picks up. Enteries are are usually different as well as mid-corner and exits. I can't even run my race lines going 4-5 seconds a lap slower so it's hard to teach someone.

One of the hardest things to teach is picking apart a track and exploiting what works for you. Then being able to deviate from it to make a safe pass, then learn something in the process.

Riding on a race track is pretty much cut-n-dry IMO. Glorified circles. Racing on a track, being competitive, manipulating a situation to your advantage, and having fun? Not so cut-n-dry.

Ivan_markII · 07-02-2007, 08:27 PM

I said "fast and safe" not just "fast". Check out the rider who has been riding the track for years and whose bike doesn't look smashed to bits.

Don't make the mistake of thinking there's some Zen type mystery about fast riding. It's just physics, practice, and experience. And being humble enough to learn from riders faster than you is important.

velocity bmg · 07-03-2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodyracing

the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, barring track quirks like camber, bumps, etc and without considering what kind of corner comes next thats pretty much the rule for picking a line, so yeah obviously the green line is the straightest and therefor the fastest

I would have to disagree about learning your lines by following someone faster than you, if somebody is fast enough to have a perfect line every time then somebody that doesn't even know yet how to pick a line won't be able to keep up with them anyway. Especially with Novice club racers (this includes myself), being "fast" doesn't make you an instructor. Ed Bargy makes a point in all of his lectures that he sees "fast" novice racers taking stupid lines at a certain section at Jennings. They aren't going fast there because they know what they're doing, instead they are making up for their lack of experience/knowledge with over agressive riding

I've got a great picture of me from my first year of trackdays leaned way the hell over, nearly dragging an elbow. Small problem... I was way off line so it doesn't matter how far I'm leaned over or how fast I'm going around the corner, somebody could carry less lean angle on the right line and make the corner much faster than me.

velocity bmg · 07-03-2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philbie

At some point in a race I could see all those lines actually having a use. Depending on if you are trying to set someone up for a pass, trying to prevent someone from making a pass, or exploiting a strength that you may have whether it's braking or exiting.

redcbrla · 07-06-2007, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan_markII

No one line is perfect. Some bikes should use one line and other bikes should use a different line. It's always a trade-off.

I would agree to this to a certain extent...I think no matter what bike you are on there are certain lines that are going to be the same

I agree with Oreo that only one of those three lines is ideal..the only exception being an unusual pass.

I agree with what some have said about some fast guys no necessarily having good lines. Although I think there is a certain lap time that you can only obtain on a given track by taking the proper lines. I can think of instances (as others have mentioned here) when I realized how much more speed I could carry through a certain turn AFTER I found the correct way through it.

On a similar note: how many folks here have had problems turning in TOO early...especialy once they pick up their pace? I actually crashed at Laguna in Turn 6 because of this. I was on pace and turned in too early and only then realized that I wasn't going to make it...I tried to lean more and ran out of tire. A lesson learned that day!

Sometime Racer · 07-13-2007, 12:17 AM

There are two lines that could be either correct or partially correct. Yellow and Green. Blue is just wrong and I can't see the use for it. Normally, the green line would be correct unless followed by either a straight or another right hand turn in a short distance. Why you ask? Because we have a set of turns that is very close to the above and if you modified the yellow line on the exit more towards the green line you'd have the best way of getting through our bus stop. It allows for deep braking, late turn in, and you over exagerate the right turn (sacrificing mid corner speed) to get a good drive onto the straight following the left hander.

I am looking at the picture going from the bottom up.

velocity bmg · 07-13-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sometime Racer

There are two lines that could be either correct or partially correct. Yellow and Green. Blue is just wrong and I can't see the use for it. Normally, the green line would be correct unless followed by either a straight or another right hand turn in a short distance. Why you ask? Because we have a set of turns that is very close to the above and if you modified the yellow line on the exit more towards the green line you'd have the best way of getting through our bus stop. It allows for deep braking, late turn in, and you over exagerate the right turn (sacrificing mid corner speed) to get a good drive onto the straight following the left hander.

I am looking at the picture going from the bottom up.

I would tend to agree with all that.

**********************************

Although the blue line is possible...in a race situation.
(My personal race experience being against cars or bikes on the back roads, which means about nil.)

But I could see it happening if you really had to out brake someone then squeeze them off coming across their entry line to the corner.

(I know Scott Russell was famous for cutting across other racer's lines, but what do I know? Usually how to let my mouth get me in trouble...but bleh...oh well...)