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On The TrackHad a trackday, a good or bad day at the track? Want to get started racing? Just like racing? Cmon insde and post questions, results or comments.
So I decided that since I live in Michigan and about half the year is freezing f'ing cold that I want to try ice racing ... or really just ice riding at this point.
I'm trying to find information on ice tires for sportbikes like the ones below and so far I havent found anything. Any one have any information ?
Hmmm, I work with a guy that ice races and dirt tracks, but he uses a Moto-X bike. He has studded his fair share of tires, but preferes to buy them pre-studded due to the amount of work involved in studding them. I can ask him if he has seen any sportbikes ice racing, but I have been to some of his races and I never saw any myself.
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The only time that I've ever done Ice Racing has been on a dirt bike. It's kind of like flat-tracking, only on ice - at least in the incarnation that I know of - you're from Michigan, so you'd know better what variants are available. I know that we had to wear special equipment - in particular, it was kind of like a hockey-goalie's leg padding (the "pros" actually had special boots made, which were different for their "inside" legs vs. their "outside" legs. We were also required to run these special fenders that were made out of aluminum and were relatively long (i.e., covering much of the wheel's contour).
Sportbike ice racing is something that I've never heard of before, and I think that you'd have some problems that aren't present in dirt-bike style ice-racing (that thing in the picture above looks like it's been modified to suit the purpose), including:
1) Swingarm clearance - Dirt Bikes have plenty of clearance between the tire and the front of the swingarm (i.e., the part near the pivot). I would think that it would be a close fit on a sportbike with spikes in the tires, and might cause some damage that could be costly to repair...like needing a new swingarm.
2) Of course any sort of hugger or other close item (swingarm mounted plate holders, low hanging plates, undertail exhausts) would have to be removed or at least protected from thrown spikes, which happens all of the time. The same would be true of the front wheel - the fender would have to come off, and you might have problems with brake lines, calipers, or other items that could come in contact with spikes because of their proximity to the tread of a tire on a sportbike tire, which has a relatively low profile and small wheel diameter and twice as many brake components as a dirt bike (i.e., more stuff in less space).
3) I think that you'd have ergo problems since you wouldn't be able to sit up properly and throw your leg out the way you can on a dirt bike, unless you're really short or your bike is modified somehow Even if you're not circle racing you would want to do that in turns when you're on the gas and your back tire drifts. Not that it's not possible, but I think that it would be awkward, especially if you have rearsets on your bike.
4) Are there sportbike ice-racing leagues? Wouldn't surprise me in a place like Michigan, though being from NJ I've never seen that particular variant on the sport. Or are you just doing it for the challenge of doing it on a sportbike? Keeping the power under control to avoid excessive slip/drift would be a challenge, I surmise, even on an older 600 or 650 twin, as the wheel is going to want to rip up the ice. You'll also be more prone to thrown spikes with that kind of power.
My guess is that there is a reason that they do it with dirt-bikes.
Here's something that I did with a friend once years back (although I accept no responsibility whatsoever for any mishap you may have as a result of trying this - you do it at your own risk, and I recommend that you don't try it on a sportbike or any bike for that matter. My butt is covered on this one):
I took an older knobby that I had used up that previous season and took a who bunch of sheet metal screws. I drilled one in to each knob, all the way in, so that the bottom surface of the round head was flush with the top surface of the knob. They were phillips head screws, so the slots acted as sort of "traction edges."
We went to a solidly frozen lake and let it rip - it worked rather well. We did up his bike too and went back out to race a bit. The only problem was that the tires didn't last very long. We threw screws at an alarming rate, as well as a few knobs (of course it was a beat up tire before we started). After a couple of hours of messing around at least 1/2 of the screws were gone. There were a couple of nice dings in the exhaust and rear fender, and my buddy had a good scratch in his goggles and his helmet visor where a screw thrown from my tire had apparently gotten to him.
It was a lot of fun, but in retrospect, not too smart. Of course, when you're that age you think that you're indestructible. I kind of look at your ice-racing sportbike thing the same way: loads of fun, but does it really seem to be safe? (Even by normal sportbiking "the average definition of safe is 'pretty hazardous to life and limb'" standards,, this seems a bit risky).
I think swingarm clearance may be an issue ... but there is some room. Possibly enough that a slightly smaller tire would clear with studs. there is about an inch and a half or so of space, but I dont know how much the tire will elongate when it spins up, since it will be very cold and hard who knows. Other than that, the clearances and thrown studs shouldnt be a problem. I intend to get good quality tires with low risk of throwing them. Plus, its just a bike. If it gets a little messed up from a stud oh well. Cant be any worse than dropping it at the track.
As far as the ergo's, it is comparable to running a motard vs a sportbike on a road course ... the goal isnt to back it in and slide through, its to maintain traction.
I think swingarm clearance may be an issue ... but there is some room. Possibly enough that a slightly smaller tire would clear with studs. there is about an inch and a half or so of space, but I dont know how much the tire will elongate when it spins up, since it will be very cold and hard who knows. Other than that, the clearances and thrown studs shouldnt be a problem. I intend to get good quality tires with low risk of throwing them. Plus, its just a bike. If it gets a little messed up from a stud oh well. Cant be any worse than dropping it at the track.
As far as the ergo's, it is comparable to running a motard vs a sportbike on a road course ... the goal isnt to back it in and slide through, its to maintain traction.
But we will see what happens ..
I guess that makes sense then about maintaining traction vs. sliding. As I wrote, I rode in a flat-track style competition, so sliding was part of it; but with a sportbike, not-sliding (at least not on purpose) would make sense.
Where did you find those pictures - couldn't you go there for information about getting started? There is a URL on the side fairing, but I can't read it, it's too fuzzy in the pic. Also, if this is an established sport, there are probably already solutions to all of the problems that I stated (swingarm clearance, etc...).
Although I do think that some kind of bike protection (at least sliders, but perhaps even cages) would be wise because I would think that dropping the bike while riding on ice is a certain eventuality - even if it happens at a standstill or slow speed, ice is slippery, and the bike will eventually fall down.
p.s. Looking closely at that bike in the picture, I can see that he built the open-frame extended fenders, front and back, to give the spikes clearance and to prevent shredding someone's legs upon casual contact. There are also some large cages covering the side fairing and plexiglass windscreen extensions (presumably to keep the cold wind off of the hands). Is that bike a one-off, or is that commonly done?
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that is one of the sites I found ... but even if the school is still up and running, it is in sweden. Unfortunatley, it seems to not be too established or a sport =/
Even if they're closed, maybe you can contact the guys who ran it and find out where they got the tires, a list of mods you need to do, etc...
Who knows, with all of the wild extreme sports that have become popular these days, maybe you can kick of another one... After all, people have combined everything from parasails with wakeboards, kayaks with snowy slopes, small surfboards with ski slopes...why not ice-racing gear with a sportbike?
Could you imagine the roost? How about when you lowside...it'll make a hell of a slide, you'll go forever!
You could probably get it AMA certified if you try!
I sent them an email today so hopefully I will get some type of response.
I know I could make tires comparable to the ones in the picture, but it might cost more than just buying them if they are available. my biggest issue is tire clearance though =/
Buy yourself a dirtbike and get it studded. All you need to know about ice riding/racing is here: www.dieseljo.com
Click on the ice tab. We run a "TT" style course and it is hands down the greatest EVER! With the right tires (well worth the 1k price tag) you stick to the ice like warm slicks to asphalt. I am on my YZ80 in my avatar. This year we will be studding up the 250F and I cannot wait.
The problem with running a sportbike is the tires. The DOT's will cake with ice chips making traction difficult for the studs. The knobbies on the dirtbike break up the surface making traction possible.
EVERYONE needs to buy a dirtbike and run ice. It is unbelievable fun!!!!
you definatly dont want to get run over by these ... they probably arent even legal for recreational use (although snowmobiles are ... *shrug*)
That's why you probably want to get those leggings that the ice-racers wear.
I was thinking about the clearance problem: if you keep the same swingarm and lose the hugger, but go with a size-down of tire (say a 170 instead of 180 - it should fit on the same wheel, like the drag racers do when they want a wider, flatter contact patch) and a lower profile (say 45 instead of 55, if you can find it), then you might get the rear clearance that you need. That would give you not only the width clearance, but the combination of lower profile plus stretched tire would possibly give you the clearance from the front of the swingarm that you need. If you don't/can't do that, then you might try going to a smaller width wheel, but then just getting that to fit at all might be tough if that wheel wasn't designed for that swingarm (i.e., a "sport" option for that same bike is what you have, but the "standard" option was smaller), in which case you migh
ice racing tires
