Mid corner braking.

[AZZKIKER]

Before I get flamed. I know you are supposed to do your braking and gear changing before getting into the corner. But I am curious. Let's say you got hot into the corner and you missed a gear. How hard do you guys brake mid corner and manage to keep the bike in the lean angle, because I know the bike likes to stand up when you hit the breaks. So how do you keep your line and angle under breaking. Thanx

[ZeuSeason]

If you are crazy hot, you may be able to scrub off a very little bit speed with your fronts or throttle cut-off providing you are in a gear. But you almost may as well kiss your butt goodbye and get ready for a rough dirt ride.

There is a threshold for way too hot. Most times, you can just muscle the bike thru the curve, but that just isn't going to work riding 80mph in the middle of a 15mph curve.

[likebikes]

Read this: http://www.ketchum.org/toohot.shtml

[bumblebee]

'Tis better to low-side trying to lean a curve too hot, than to drive off the road and into the tree...

[XCR2g]

Are you talking about on the street or on the track? I'm guessing track, just because its in this section..

By mid corner you'll either be trail braking very, very lightly if not already on the gas coming out of it. You'll know way before you're halfway through the corner if you're coming in too hot or not. You'd be surprised though how much speed you can scrub off throwing the bike down into a corner.

I'm not sure what you mean by missing a gear.. do you mean missing a downshift and going into the corner a gear higher than normal? That really wouldn't affect you that much going into the corner, engine braking helps some but its not life or death unless you're in the AMA or something.. you just don't get as good of a drive out of the corner.

[nig]

The brake works like the throttle. You can stay on it until you're at or near max lean. More lean = less brake/throttle. It's the same both ways. You wouldn't hammer the throttle mid corner would you? No, you'd pick it up gently and twist it back gradually as you near the exit. You can stay on the brakes, just let off them as you increase lean angle. There is a very good diagram of this in Total Control by Lee Parks. I trail brake out of habit, street or track. Weight on the front helps the bike turn.

[Mantis]

Most of the time when you get in to hot (granted you're not an expert) simply leaning it over more will allow you to still make the turn. Starting to brake while leaned over is not recommended, and trail-braking is fairly difficult to learn how to do right.

[segue00]

The only thing you can do if you think you're too hot mid-turn is to lean some more. Brakes wont help unless you straighten her out first before applying any brake. Traction is at a bare minimum during a turn and no amount of braking will ever save you. Lean more and ride it out, or straighten her out first then brake. You can actually lean a lot more than you think to get you through a turn. And you actually lose tire grip a lot sooner than you think during a turn when you try to slow down.

[MAGNUM636]

You'd be surprised though how much speed you can scrub off throwing the bike down into a corner.

+1, I really do get good scrubbing when I change directions quickly. But as mentioned earlier, you'll know it long before you're in the thick of it when your're too hot, recognize early and brake hard in a straight like without drifting inside until the turn in point.

A little rear slide, just like in a car, actually changes the bike's yaw which gets it pointing in the right direction. When I'm quick, that's usually what I'm concentrating on: getting the bike pointed down the straights and on the gas hard--sometimes this means entering a bit easier so I can do more carving than scrubbing.

[jim schmidt]

Simplified, think of traction in terms of it being a finite quantity. If you use 101% you fall down. So if you are using 70% for turning, you can use 29% for braking. If you reduce the cornering usage by straightening you can apply more to braking.

There is no precise answer to your question, but the answer above is correct. BTW, "too hot" and "miss a shift" are indications of poor street riding. Some of that 100% should be reserved for unanticipated occurances like sand, potholes, gravel, obstacles, oil, groundhogs, etc.

[AZZKIKER]

I was talking about Track and not street riding. Thanx to all of you guys and your constructive criticism. I am no rookie. I have been riding for 13 years now and I am finally thinking about hitting the track. I was curious about a couple questions and I just wanted to see how you guys would handle the situation when something goes wrong (coming in too hot or missing a downshift). Shit can happen when you get tired riding on the track, right?

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by AZZKIKER

I was talking about Track and not street riding. Thanx to all of you guys and your constructive criticism. I am no rookie. I have been riding for 13 years now and I am finally thinking about hitting the track. I was curious about a couple questions and I just wanted to see how you guys would handle the situation when something goes wrong (coming in too hot or missing a downshift). Shit can happen when you get tired riding on the track, right?

Well then, that's a horse of a different color. The most important thing is to plan your runoffs at the same time you plan your lines.

Secondly, what I said still applies.

Have fun.

[malik ross]

Originally Posted by AZZKIKER

I was talking about Track and not street riding. Thanx to all of you guys and your constructive criticism. I am no rookie. I have been riding for 13 years now and I am finally thinking about hitting the track. I was curious about a couple questions and I just wanted to see how you guys would handle the situation when something goes wrong (coming in too hot or missing a downshift). Shit can happen when you get tired riding on the track, right?

Hmm…the questions leave me puzzled but I’ll try an answer as best as I can. Unlike the street the racetrack does afford a larger envelope of safety and a greater margin for error, even if the speeds are much higher.

Not insult your intelligence but the key to going fast on the racetrack, as well as on the street, is to approach the limits of your experience and ability slowly. You aren’t looking to make huge changes in your lap times but looking for a consistent times or a consistent improvement until you reach your limit or that of the bike. (Usually the former and rarely the latter). It’s better to do the same lap time over and over again, regardless of how fast you are or are not going than to have laps well below or well above your average.

The situations you have mentioned can be solved by your approach to the problem first. If you are looking at making small changes, small improvements of your lap times you won’t find yourself getting in “too hot”. It’s better to foresee the problem ahead of time than to be caught out by it when it happens. With few degrees of variance you have more time to assess your entry speed and make corrections when you are starting your braking than you will once you are off the brakes or have actually initiated the entry of the turn.

It’s better to gauge your entry speed at the start of braking than at turn in because you have more options at that point. You can brake harder and still make your turn in point, you can brake harder and turn in later or you can brake harder and find a safe point off the track you want to go. Once you are into the turn your options become limited and the more likely your solution to the problem will result in a crash. Lean more and hope you can scrub off speed (probably the best option although it’s the hardest to do), stand the bike up and go off course (not the greatest solution and depending upon track design and speed may still result in a crash), or pull on the brakes (you’ve already used up a good portion of your traction available just on entrance and as will likely result in a lowside).

Another approach tactic is to focus on making faster time in the faster sections of the track. Tying yourself into a knot in a 1st or 2nd gear turn is not going to get you around the track much faster. The gain is maybe .5 seconds. The risk is picking rocks from your ass in the gravel trap. Watch a track day and see where the newer rider’s crash and it’s usually in the slower corners. Why? Because you only have to push a little bit farther to reach the limit and a little bit farther to go over it.

Probably the most important approach tactic for newer track riders is to shift your focus from how fast you get in the turn to how fast you can get out. The bike has to be accelerating to make speed. Carrying a ton of entrance speed doesn’t lower your lap times as much as getting in the turn smoothly and getting on the gas early and hard. Bikes work best when the gas is on and the weight is towards the back.

When you say missing a gear I assume the bike is false neutral and basically freewheeling. You don’t realize how much of your braking the motor is doing for you until it’s gone. Best solution is to pull in the clutch, stay on the brakes and look for a spot off the track to go. Why pull in the clutch? You don’t want the entire engine braking to suddenly appear while you are turning or in the grass or gravel. You will also lessen the amount of damage your gearbox will sustain but not slamming the gear back together while the bike is moving.

Missed shift is not as big a problem. You still have engine braking just not as much as if you kept your revs up while back shifting. Best solution for a new rider is to wait until you are standing the bike up out of the corner to backshift. Don’t want to try it while you are leaned over and have a bunch of other stuff on your mind.

[KawTipping]

Good info from Malik without the normal comments...I don't know if I can handle that!!

[AZZKIKER]

Thanx Malik, That was well put man.