My first track day...

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Originally Posted by TTsixxer

Well guess what, it happened to me. The rear tire lifted off the ground and the bike swung around and threw me off. I eneded up in front of the bike, if it was that I lost traction it would've been a lowside and when you lowside the bike ends up in front of you not behind you. I was hanging off but I wasn't sticking my knee far out enough, maybe putting most of my weight on that peg plus it was like 90 degrees that makes the asphalt softer.

You've proven me wrong, but I must admit I've never heard of this happening to anyone else before (solid pegs-yes). It may have been caused from weighting the inside peg heavily and your boot may have actually pinched in between the peg and the frame ultimately prohibiting the peg from folding as it should. For me, if the footpeg was going to possibly be touching in a corner I made sure my boot wasn't 'locked in' on the inside peg so it could raise up with the peg.

Originally Posted by TTsixxer

I've read that rear sets are just the type of foot peg location. Sportbikes have rear set style foot pegs. The aftermarket ones you're talking about are adjustable rear sets or re-positioned rear sets. Maybge I'm wrong but then that means that one of the authors of the books I've read is wrong as well.

I have heard the same argument based on the fact that the foot peg is set back from the frame and not mounted directly to it as with some bikes. But the convincing arguments I have heard is that when you tell someone they need some rearsets to stop the pegs from dragging what do you think of? The people I spoke with said they immediately think of the peg mounts that have been moved from the stock location. When I asked them what they called the original equipment most said "stock footpeg mounts". It really doesn't matter, and maybe it's more of a regional thing, but in my mind 'stock rearset' seems somewhat contridictory.

Originally Posted by TTsixxer

Great advice! I never use the rear brake on the street or the track. But I've heard that the rear brake can be useful to adjust your line mid-corner. Reg Pridgmore also encourages to learn to use the rear brake because it's 10% of braking power can make the difference. For now I'll stay off it.

It's true that the rear brake provides a minor amount of braking ability, but my point is more about what a new track rider needs to be focusing on. Similarly the arguement about new riders to motorcycles starting on high Hp motorcycles, there are much more important things to be learning about controlling the motorcycle than having to control something that is a whole unique variable in itself, in this example horsepower. With new riders Hp is a massive handicap, with new track riders rear braking is a similar unneeded variable. With both situations as the operator becomes more familiar with the bike and the situations that it's being operated in then you can add the other variable(s) into the mix to help maximize the experience. This was the direction I was coming from, though I hadn't explained it.

On a side note: I notice your (TTsixxer) from Hawaii, do you happen to know who Ed Sorbo is? I worked with him on the M4 Suzuki Team at Daytona a few weeks ago and he told me that he lived in Hawaii up until '99 (if I remember correctly). He raced there, was involved with Team Hawaii racing, and was involved in numerous other ventures in motorsports. Just wondering.

[TTsixxer]

Originally Posted by GSXR RACER MIKE

You've proven me wrong, but I must admit I've never heard of this happening to anyone else before (solid pegs-yes). It may have been caused from weighting the inside peg heavily and your boot may have actually pinched in between the peg and the frame ultimately prohibiting the peg from folding as it should. For me, if the footpeg was going to possibly be touching in a corner I made sure my boot wasn't 'locked in' on the inside peg so it could raise up with the peg.



I have heard the same argument based on the fact that the foot peg is set back from the frame and not mounted directly to it as with some bikes. But the convincing arguments I have heard is that when you tell someone they need some rearsets to stop the pegs from dragging what do you think of? The people I spoke with said they immediately think of the peg mounts that have been moved from the stock location. When I asked them what they called the original equipment most said "stock footpeg mounts". It really doesn't matter, and maybe it's more of a regional thing, but in my mind 'stock rearset' seems somewhat contridictory.



It's true that the rear brake provides a minor amount of braking ability, but my point is more about what a new track rider needs to be focusing on. Similarly the arguement about new riders to motorcycles starting on high Hp motorcycles, there are much more important things to be learning about controlling the motorcycle than having to control something that is a whole unique variable in itself, in this example horsepower. With new riders Hp is a massive handicap, with new track riders rear braking is a similar unneeded variable. With both situations as the operator becomes more familiar with the bike and the situations that it's being operated in then you can add the other variable(s) into the mix to help maximize the experience. This was the direction I was coming from, though I hadn't explained it.

On a side note: I notice your (TTsixxer) from Hawaii, do you happen to know who Ed Sorbo is? I worked with him on the M4 Suzuki Team at Daytona a few weeks ago and he told me that he lived in Hawaii up until '99 (if I remember correctly). He raced there, was involved with Team Hawaii racing, and was involved in numerous other ventures in motorsports. Just wondering.

Damn I moved to Hawaii in '99 and didn't start riding 'til january 2003 but that name sure sounds familiar. I'm pretty sure the other road racing guys that have been racing here for years know him.

And I totally agree with you in the whole rear brake/horsepower thing. I see kids saying that they have out-grown their 600's in 3 months, I don't get it after 2 years of mostly everyday riding I still feel like I have so much to learn out of my 600.

[Rascus]

Great thread...lots of info...damn i need to do a track day

Ed Sorbo..name is familar. He's still listed on the HRRA.net website as a past winner. I'm sure Kim remembers him.

[TTsixxer]

Rascus come this sunday, I'll be riding and if you have a bike you should ride as well!

[redcbrla]

So another update...I got the video of me on the track this Saturday and watched it. VERY frustrating to see how 'slow' I was going in relation to how it felt when I was actually riding on the track. I was able to see better lines that I could have taken, places that I could have passed and didn't, and multiple corners that I slowed down too much for on entry (could a have taken them much faster). But, the point of me paying for a video was to be able to critique my riding and learn from mistakes.

Also, I had some problems locking the rear. I am sure overly aggressive downshifting played a role but I think my tire pressure might have been too high for track use. I was running stock (42 and 36 psi) pressure and forgot to drop it down at the track. Could that have played a role in sliding the rear on down shifts?

Thanks again for all the good advice. Can't wait to put it to use on my next trackday.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Originally Posted by redcbrla

Also, I had some problems locking the rear. I am sure overly aggressive downshifting played a role but I think my tire pressure might have been too high for track use. I was running stock (42 and 36 psi) pressure and forgot to drop it down at the track. Could that have played a role in sliding the rear on down shifts?

Thanks again for all the good advice. Can't wait to put it to use on my next trackday.

Tire pressure can play a role, but more than likely it sounds like you weren't raising your rpm's enough for the next gear as you down shifted or were using the engine as a brake to slow you down. Having smooth transitions with the throttle when down shifting on the track can take a little practice. Engine braking is a no-no in many peoples eyes because it's rough on your bike and it's counter productive to what your trying to achieve. Think of it like this, other than when your holding a maintainence throttle in a turn, there are only 2 things you do while on the track: accelerate or brake. Engine 'braking' is neither of those, even though it will slow you down at the expense of the bikes handling. The reason I say it's not 'true braking' is because it takes alot longer to slow down this way than actually using the brakes, which ultimately makes your lap times slower and less efficient. If your unintentionally doing this and want a little insider info on a way to help stop doing it, try this the next time you go out to the track. If you normally are going thru a specific corner in 2nd gear, then try doing it only down shifting to 3rd instead. What this will do is slightly 'push' you into the corner with the engine instead of slowing you down, which is a little freaky at 1st, but it will teach you to use your brakes to brake, not your engine. Another reason for doing this is because at higher rpm's your bike is all bound up suspension wise, somewhat less rpm's will help the bike to flow thru the turn better and will help to break you of the engine braking habit before you develop it as a bad habit. Remember that even if you don't have a bazillion rpm's at the exit of the turn to accelerate with, carrying only 1 more MPH thru a turn is equal to apx. 3 bike lengths at the exit. So if you can get rid of that overbraking, due to engine braking, you'll probably find yourself get faster and smoother by carrying a little more speed thru the turn. Not having so many rpm's in the turn will also give you a little more confidence in your cornering instead of worrying about breaking the rear tire loose. Lastly, when doing this you may actually feel like your doing slower lap times, when in fact your going faster. I would highly recommend buying or borrowing an onboard lap timer to see if things your doing are improving or hurting your progress.

Good luck, ride safe!

[redcbrla]

WOW...thanks Racer Mike

I wasn't really intenionally downshifting to slow down but rather to get the rpm's up in the powerband, like you also mentioned. But yes when you think about it being smoother on entering the turn would definitely make up for being a little down on power in the exit.

[TTsixxer]

Practice downshifting when you ride on the street, that's how I learned. It's pretty hard to master and even when you think you matered it, you mess up a downshift. Can't wait til sunday!!

[jk750]

Two weeks 'til my first track day of the season. You guys have gotten me all jacked up! I can't wait!

Good advice by all.

What tire pressures do you guys usually start with on a mild day and a fairly smooth track?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Originally Posted by jk750

Two weeks 'til my first track day of the season. You guys have gotten me all jacked up! I can't wait!

Good advice by all.

What tire pressures do you guys usually start with on a mild day and a fairly smooth track?

I use the Dunlop 208GP race compounds (switching to 209GP's at Road America in a couple weeks) and run between 30-32psi front and rear at most tracks in most conditions. Daytona is rare because it has such high cornering loads that you run higher like 34+psi, but that shouldn't be needed at most tracks. I believe that even at Road America they don't run any higher than 33psi on the Dunlops. Run lower pressures in the cold and wet to allow the tire to conform to the road a little bit better under the lower cornering loads.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

Originally Posted by redcbrla

WOW...thanks Racer Mike

I wasn't really intenionally downshifting to slow down but rather to get the rpm's up in the powerband, like you also mentioned. But yes when you think about it being smoother on entering the turn would definitely make up for being a little down on power in the exit.

I also should mention the rear wheel hopping or locking up without using the rear brake is exactly what the new slipper clutches are for. These type of clutches don't allow the engine to 'engine brake' at all and help to keep the tire in contact with the road and under control. I believe the Kawi 636 has that as stock equipment.

[TTsixxer]

Originally Posted by GSXR RACER MIKE

I use the Dunlop 208GP race compounds (switching to 209GP's at Road America in a couple weeks) and run between 30-32psi front and rear at most tracks in most conditions. Daytona is rare because it has such high cornering loads that you run higher like 34+psi, but that shouldn't be needed at most tracks. I believe that even at Road America they don't run any higher than 33psi on the Dunlops. Run lower pressures in the cold and wet to allow the tire to conform to the road a little bit better under the lower cornering loads.

I have 208 GP-A's (euro spec) and they're supposedly softer than the GP's and I love them! They don;t do too bad on the street as well, they just don't last too long. At the track I ride with 30-30 psi and it works good for me.

[Meddiepie]

Originally Posted by Rogue6

If you were able to grind your pegs, I would think that you should be able to drag a knee. I had my knee down long before I started to touch pegs. I would def. try to hang off a bit more next time. One thing that really helped me was to NOT concentrate on getting the knee down, but just try to be faster. The times I actually consciously tried to get my knee on the ground, I couldn't do it. When I forgot about it and just concerned myself with getting through the turn quicker, then I would feel it touch. It's a wild feeling the first time!

Speed comes with time. Work on body positioning and riding solid and consistant lines. Once you're comfortable with the two, speed will shortly follow. You gotta go slow to be fast. Don't worry about whether or not you're going to drag your knee either. It'll happen when it happens. Your knee's there as a position sensor, so you get a good feel for how far you have the bike leaned over, and how much farther you can lean the bike over. There are a lot of fast guys who don't even drag their knees. A lot of the "fast guys" (pros and expert racers) will actually throw the bike over, get their knee down and then pull it off the ground an inch or so (take a look at still shots or pictures of AMA or MotoGP riders...)

Take a track school if you get the chance, you won't regret it. I learned more in 1 day of class room/on track riding then I would have learned in years on my own.