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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
I have no need for a 2000 mile salad, I know myself and my family quite well, and I can safely say that we would adjust quite readily to local produce seasons.
you have no Idea what your talking about obviously, nor even the slightest understanding how food gets from point A to point B and what that process involves.
but hey, if you really want to live like that, plenty of places in the world where you still can, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out champ.
I do not maintain that oil is in immediate short supply, but I do not see the reason in wasting it on a large scale through unnecessary shipments of anything, including foreign food stuffs. I am also realistic enough to know that it will continue whether I personally think its a good idea or not.
How long have those prosperous countries been able to maintain their lifestyle while using up the resources you mention?
damn well we are a prime example of that, huge strides have been made in farming which has allowed us to use the same land over and over again, its called learning from our mistakes, we have done a damn good job at it, your fit, happy and healthy because of it.
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I have no issue with using foreign oil, but we shouldn't be relying on it. We should be using renewable resources as much as possible in all phases of life, because when one resource shrinks to a certain level, wars will start to get what's left. Foreign food has security concerns, you really want this stuff coming here? China's contaminated food scandal widens - International Herald Tribune
spend less time reading the green bullshit and you will be 1000 times better off, everything has a trade off, do you know that electric motors existed before combustable? Do you also know that ethenal lost to gasoline originally because guess what WE FUCKING KNEW THEN THAT ETHANOL WAS A PISS POOR CHOICE, do to a variety of circumstances. Oil is right now the best thing we can use, IM all for looking into differnt area's, but a good chunk of those other area's have already been proven well stupid but are pushed forward by those seeking to make money from them, big surprise. the biggest problem is The ignorence of the American people on this.
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They may be built by private contractors, a fact of which I am aware, but the money comes from taxation. I am assuming you don't mean to imply that private concerns will be able or willing to fund road construction projects?
I have no need for a 2000 mile salad, I know myself and my family quite well, and I can safely say that we would adjust quite readily to local produce seasons.
you have no Idea what your talking about obviously, but hey, if you really want to live like that, plenty of places in the world where you still can, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out champ.
I do not maintain that oil is in immediate short supply, but I do not see the reason in wasting it on a large scale through unnecessary shipments of anything, including foreign food stuffs. I am also realistic enough to know that it will continue whether I personally think its a good idea or not.
Oil Shale
I am all for you talking with Ty about this more, the two of us have debated the hell out of it over the past few months and I have alot of respect for the guy, ask him straight up what is a substitute for said oil right now.
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How long have those prosperous countries been able to maintain their lifestyle while using up the resources you mention?
damn well we are a prime example of that, huge strides have been made in farming which has allowed us to use the same land over and over again, its called learning from our mistakes, we have done a damn good job at it, your fit, happy and healthy because of it.
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I have no issue with using foreign oil, but we shouldn't be relying on it. We should be using renewable resources as much as possible in all phases of life, because when one resource shrinks to a certain level, wars will start to get what's left. Foreign food has security concerns, you really want this stuff coming here? China's contaminated food scandal widens - International Herald Tribune
spend less time reading the green bullshit and you will be 1000 times better off, everything has a trade off, do you know that electric motors existed before combustable? Do you also know that ethenal lost to gasoline originally because guess what WE FUCKING KNEW THEN THAT ETHANOL WAS A PISS POOR CHOICE, do to a variety of circumstances. Oil is right now the best thing we can use, IM all for looking into differnt area's, but a good chunk of those other area's have already been proven well stupid but are pushed forward by those seeking to make money from them, big surprise. the biggest problem is The ignorence of the American people on this.
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They may be built by private contractors, a fact of which I am aware, but the money comes from taxation. I am assuming you don't mean to imply that private concerns will be able or willing to fund road construction projects?
You are aware that a lot of modern cars can be tracked already? Onstar and similar systems are standard on many cars, and those can GPS track you. They sell it as a safety feature -- "If you get locked out of your car, just call us and we can remotely unlock it for you", or "If you get in an accident, the system will automatically call emergency services for you".
Yuppers, in addition to lowjacks and numberous other 3rd party security systems. OH not to mention pretty much any GPS systems that maintain a two way data links.....I do sort of work in technology after all
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Originally Posted by PhilB
For that matter, ODBII has some "features" that are problematic for privacy and all cars since 1996 have had that installed as mandated by the government. Which is how they would bring it around for this -- they wouldn't make you put it on a car or bike you already own; they'll just make it mandatory for the manufacturers to install them, and over time more and more vehicles will be so equipped, and few people will protest because (a) they won't even know it, most of them, (b) the systems won't be removable, and (c) relatively few people will be willing to forever limit themselves to vehicles made prior to the requirement.
PhilB
Well aware, in fact I was aware back in the 90s. The OBDII system in particular monitors and records the last 5 seconds of all control inputs and speeds up to and including an "event" being an accident.
Fact of the matter is that they systems are perfectly removable, but you would really have to tweak it to pass emisssions, and most of us don't have the equipment. I can go buy a Microsquirt ECU for $400 and pretty much plug it straight into a GM harness and go from there, but I'd never pass inspection. I love how that works.
you have no Idea what your talking about obviously, nor even the slightest understanding how food gets from point A to point B and what that process involves.
but hey, if you really want to live like that, plenty of places in the world where you still can, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out champ.
Yeah, picking produce and trucking it into stores thousands of miles away is a real hard concept to grasp. You win.
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spend less time reading the green bullshit and you will be 1000 times better off, everything has a trade off, do you know that electric motors existed before combustable? Do you also know that ethenal lost to gasoline originally because guess what WE FUCKING KNEW THEN THAT ETHANOL WAS A PISS POOR CHOICE, do to a variety of circumstances. Oil is right now the best thing we can use, IM all for looking into differnt area's, but a good chunk of those other area's have already been proven well stupid but are pushed forward by those seeking to make money from them, big surprise. the biggest problem is The ignorence of the American people on this.
What exactly have I been reading? I never mentioned electric motors, which still require centralized hydrocarbon combustion (for the most part) for power, I never mentioned ethanol and wouldn't mention it, as it is a net energy loss and terrible for our soil system, and I never said we shouldn't rely on oil, I said we shouldn't rely on FOREIGN oil, as it is a choke point, as demonstrated during the '70's.
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So just keep pissing away tax dollars then?
Your turning into a fine liberal.
You really like reading things into conversations, don't you? How do you plan to maintain our current transportation infrastructure? Can you reply to that, or are you going to continue to be insulting? You can take your 'liberal' crap and shove it, as you have no idea who I am or how I think, beyond what you think you see in a bunch of typed words.
You are aware that a lot of modern cars can be tracked already? Onstar and similar systems are standard on many cars, and those can GPS track you. They sell it as a safety feature -- "If you get locked out of your car, just call us and we can remotely unlock it for you", or "If you get in an accident, the system will automatically call emergency services for you".
A little known fact is that OnStar can and has been used to listen to the vehicle's occupants and track the vehicle without making the occupants aware of said monitoring. There was an incident in the D.C./Baltimore area a few years back where an SUV had been carjacked with a young child on board. Police used OnStar to listen in and track the vehicle without making the carjacker aware that they were doing so.
For that matter, ODBII has some "features" that are problematic for privacy and all cars since 1996 have had that installed as mandated by the government. Which is how they would bring it around for this -- they wouldn't make you put it on a car or bike you already own; they'll just make it mandatory for the manufacturers to install them, and over time more and more vehicles will be so equipped, and few people will protest because (a) they won't even know it, most of them, (b) the systems won't be removable, and (c) relatively few people will be willing to forever limit themselves to vehicles made prior to the requirement.
I've personally felt the effect of this when my black box was used to find out how fast I was going prior to my accident. However, I didn't see it as an invasion of privacy as it was merely logging factual inputs and states of various systems in my car without transmitting them to anyone. They were only obtained as evidence (with my permission) after the fact.
IIRC the black box in GM vehicles is tied to the airbag system, so removing it primarily just disables your air bags.
There is nothing illegal with Airbag Sensing Modules (aka "black boxes, even though they are silver) and the data they recored. You have no expectation of privacy of what you do on a public road. The data can only be retreived by permission of the owner, or via serch warrant. I have done it both ways. Now I always go the seach warrant route as it makes it just about impossible to surpress later on.
OnStar is different, but by purchasing that vehicle you are aware it's in there. How does it work after the subscription runs out? My dad's Buick has it and the girls always push the button to hear it talk. All it says is contact a 1-800 number or OnStar.com to subscibe, then turns off.
__________________ Panzerkampfwagen VI Ausf. B Konigstiger {King Tiger}. Known as the "Royal Tiger" to the Americans.
OnStar is different, but by purchasing that vehicle you are aware it's in there. How does it work after the subscription runs out? My dad's Buick has it and the girls always push the button to hear it talk. All it says is contact a 1-800 number or OnStar.com to subscibe, then turns off.
Even when the subscription is inactive, OnStar is still available for use by law enforcement. However, unlike Big Brother style systems, it is still owned and controlled by a private company and can be legally removed by the owner. OnStar can't exactly be used to track you if you either pull out its fuses or disconnect its antenna.
What's this shale oil talk? I'll sum shale oil (and calling it oil in the conventional sense is a bit of a stretch) with the following - it seems like shale is always just "$15/bbl away from being profitable". It's one of those mystical energy sources. When does oil shale become profitable to mine out of the ground? Apparently it wasn't $150/bbl so don't expect oil prices any less than that even if we start huge projects. Maybe at $200-300/bbl oil then shale becomes viable?
Water has always been a problem with it, although I hear that Raytheon is supposedly developing a radiative device to literally "melt" the oil out of the rock from a single point of radiation. They have to get past the problem of isolating the heat from surrounding rock which I'm sure they could do but until something like this is invented then there's no way oil shale will ever be scalable to offset conventional field decline without an endless supply of one of the few resources more precious than oil - water. And even then, it will take a much larger number of BTUs to extract this shale oil than it does to pump crude so the energy return on energy invested will be lower, meaning less net energy....and since it won't be profitable until oil is extremely expensive...it'll be even more expensive to extract shale oil then due to upstream energy investments required.
Oil shale certainly isn't going to save us from peak oil. But with the current economic disaster we're wading thru...no worries for now
Here's about all you ever wanted to know about shale oil:
"Reported EROIs (energy return on investments) are generally in the range of 1.5:1 to 4:1, with a few extreme values between 7:1 and 13:1. The main difference between oil sands and oil shale is that the oil sands are particles of sand, surrounded by a microscopic layer of water that is itself surrounded by heavy bitumen (thick oil). Separating the oil from the oil sands is much easier because of this water layer, since the oil is ‘‘suspended’’ in the water/sand layer and not directly stuck on or in the sand as is the case for oil shale. This makes oil shale much more energy intensive to separate (Ibid). As such, shale oil production - whether through surface retorting or ICP - is more energy-intensive than conventional oil production or from tar sands, and even enhanced recovery from oil fields. In fact, upstream energy consumption per unit of final fuel delivered is roughly 1.75-2.75 times that of conventional petroleum production (Brandt 2007). Tar sands and oil shales seem to be in the same “EROI ballpark”."
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The candle which burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very bright, my child
"Went down" and "stopped driving" are two entirely different things. He said they still drove and he was correct.
One would wonder how much is truely conservation vs. not having a job and not being financially able to drive? While the end result is the same, the means are very much different.
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The candle which burns twice as bright burns half as long. And you have burned so very bright, my child
I love how people think that driving Corrollas will measurably conserve oil
News flash: The largest consumers of fossil fuels are trucks, trains, planes and ships. Private consumers BARELY scratch commercial use and driving a shitty econobox might save a year or two worth of oil, but is next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.
My 15mpg truck is a piss in the bucket nest to say a Navy Cruiser or Destroyer that used 6000 gallons PER hour PER motor (of which there are 4) at full steam and that isn't counting the three jet engine generators. Likewise every passenger jet liner uses something like 80 SUV's yearly consumption worth of light sweet crude every time it leaves the ground how many millions of times a year. Big rig trucks get MAYBE 4mpg loaded times 100,000 miles a year.
My big stupid truck isn't a drop in a bucket next to that.
I love how people think that driving Corrollas will measurably conserve oil
News flash: The largest consumers of fossil fuels are trucks, trains, planes and ships. Private consumers BARELY scratch commercial use and driving a shitty econobox might save a year or two worth of oil, but is next to nothing in the grand scheme of things.
My 15mpg truck is a piss in the bucket nest to say a Navy Cruiser or Destroyer that used 6000 gallons PER hour PER motor (of which there are 4) at full steam and that isn't counting the three jet engine generators. Likewise every passenger jet liner uses something like 80 SUV's yearly consumption worth of light sweet crude every time it leaves the ground how many millions of times a year. Big rig trucks get MAYBE 4mpg loaded times 100,000 miles a year.
My big stupid truck isn't a drop in a bucket next to that.
Heavy jets will put on anywhere from 300 to 400 gals just for taxiing.
Heavy jets will put on anywhere from 300 to 400 gals just for taxiing.
Correct, and another 4000 taking off, I'm not sure the gallons per hour cruising. My ship was powered by LM2500s that are also on the DC-10 but I don't know the gal/hr figures for a plane at cruising altitude.
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