Now they want to keep track of how much you travel?

[bumblebee]

The economy will never regain its footing until government at all levels cut their budgets at least 25% in the next 3 years

[ty454]

I wonder if they'd do it for motorcycles? Hopefully not, all the more reason to ride then.

Would be a very lucrative contract for the GPS manufacturer, to say the least. Would they have to conform to COCOM limits?

[Desp]

So the real question is, who would comply(To the GPS Tracking Tax system)? I'm sure you would like to say you wouldn't. You will.

[Tripped1]

Originally Posted by Desp

So the real question is, who would comply(To the GPS Tracking Tax system)? I'm sure you would like to say you wouldn't. You will.

The hell I will, and the 4th amendment says that I basically don't have to.

That one would be fought tooth and nail. Just like if they try to chip me or any other such nonsense, I'll excercise my right to haul ass and outsource myself.

[ARozanski]

Originally Posted by Royal Tiger

So the solution to everything is raise the taxes? If you are driving an old pick up because you are just getting by, how is higher gas taxes going to get you to buy a new fuel efficient vehicle? Michigan wanted to raise the fuel tax 75% to stop people from driving. People still drive, they just spend less money on other things. The NY Post had a story years ago about the massive tax increase on cigarettes. They figured they would make it so expensive, people would quit. Viola! Healthier New Yorkers. Problem is when they looked into it, low income smokers were still buying cigarettes, but their kids were getting 1 meal a day. And since you are raising fuel taxes, one could assume you also mean diesel, so we all get to pay more to cover the increased cost of trucks moving goods to consumers, wether you drive a Prius or Surburban. And more for food to cover the increase in diesel for farm tractors. When gas soared this year, meat, milk, eggs, etc... are rose as well. I see your thought Fly, I just don't agree with the execution. Don't you think fuel taxes are high enough already? In PA we are at 50.7 cents a gallon.

1) Offer one or two time tax breaks on the purchase of a new Detroit truck (or car), helps the auto makers, helps replace the older vehicles, the one or two times means it won't be abused.

2) Transport costs - I'd rather pay more in the short term, and have a return to local-based economies in the long term, along with a return to seasonal-appropriate food supplies. We put much of our health in the hands of foreign entities, as well as at the mercy of long distance trucking. Return to locally grown materials and you remove these threats and dependencies, along with stimulating local economies without government intervention.

3) Fuel taxes should be raised, but solely to pay for road repair and maintenance, and maybe construction of high speed rail services in major metro areas.

[Scissors]

Originally Posted by bumblebee

The economy will never regain its footing until government at all levels cut their budgets at least 25% in the next 3 years

Hopefully they'll stop busting prostitutes, drug dealers/users, and minor traffic violations and go back to actually only giving a shit about important laws, like rape, abduction, and murder.

[Scissors]

The more complex any tax system becomes, the more overhead is required to collect and enforce it, reducing efficiency.

They should be working to make taxes more simple. But then people might actually realize how much of their salaries are being eaten up by the government. (Once I add in fuel, personal property, and sales taxes, I'm shelling out over 40% of my income.)

[bassjones]

I'm in favor of ending payroll tax deductions and requiring people to write out a check for what they owe once or twice a year. That would accomplish a couple of things. Primarily, it would mean the government gets to stop playing with my money all year, only to write a check back to me at the end of the year. Secondarily, and perhaps most importantly, it would wake people up to how much they actually are paying in taxes. When it's taken out of your check every pay day, you barely notice it unless you're super anal like me and look every time (and get pissed off every time), but if YOU had to write the check out you better believe you'd pay attention.

[Scissors]

Originally Posted by bassjones

Secondarily, and perhaps most importantly, it would wake people up to how much they actually are paying in taxes.

I created a simple spreadsheet which calculates that for me and shows me where it's going.

Here are a few interesting tidbits about how much certain programs and agencies are costing me every year:

Social Security - $3,839
NASA - $110
DoD - $3,034
Medicare - $2,431
Unemployment/Welfare - $2,047
Interest on the national debt - $1,645
Medicaid - $1,316
War on terror - $914
Homeland security - $214
Department of the Interior - $73

[636blurr]

[quote=ARozanski;3911981]1) Offer one or two time tax breaks on the purchase of a new Detroit truck (or car), helps the auto makers, helps replace the older vehicles, the one or two times means it won't be abused.[how about tax breaks for the common people instead for things we actually need rather than another new fucking truck the vast majority of people do not need

2) Transport costs - I'd rather pay more in the short term, and have a return to local-based economies in the long term, along with a return to seasonal-appropriate food supplies.

We live in a first world country, if you want to live otherwise please move to another country and do so. The entire point to having a first world status is enjoying ameneties not availible to other people. Why the hell would you want to lose that? My guess is you wouldnt, you talk like you would, but when it comes down to it, you want your produceand you want it now.

We put much of our health in the hands of foreign entities, as well as at the mercy of long distance trucking. Return to locally grown materials and you remove these threats and dependencies, along with stimulating local economies without government intervention.

Most farm and ranch land that at one time could have been used for growing things has long since been developed or sold for recreational purposes so those area's no longer exist thus requiring food to be brought in from other area's, which is great, again ,first world country thing ya know.
Edit: more to this, the great depression happend in part to no real way to get food from other area's, we now have that availibility, when there is a poor harvest in a certain area in America we can transfer that burdon on to someplace else.

3) Fuel taxes should be raised, but solely to pay for road repair and maintenance, and maybe construction of high speed rail services in major metro areas.

Why the government has proven itself completely inept with our money thus far why on earth would you want to entrust them with more?

[ARozanski]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

how about tax breaks for the common people instead for things we actually need rather than another new fucking truck the vast majority of people do not need

Which would be what? Auto are the second largest purchases people make, I'd like it to remain American, if possible. One of the arguments presented above against fuel taxes is people trying to replace old vehicles with new, a tax break would help ease the transition, along with pumping money into the automakers instead of the taxpayers doing it against their will.

We live in a first world country, if you want to live otherwise please move to another country and do so. The entire point to having a first world status is enjoying ameneties not availible to other people. Why the hell would you want to lose that? My guess is you wouldnt, you talk like you would, but when it comes down to it, you want your produceand you want it now.
Most farm and ranch land that at one time could have been used for growing things has long since been developed or sold for recreational purposes so those area's no longer exist thus requiring food to be brought in from other area's, which is great, again ,first world country thing ya know.
Edit: more to this, the great depression happend in part to no real way to get food from other area's, we now have that availibility, when there is a poor harvest in a certain area in America we can transfer that burdon on to someplace else.

Why would I want to live in a third world country? I have constant power, communications, reasonable roads, security and the right for personal property ownership. I don't see the need to have produce trucked in from foreign countries just to satisfy my appetite. Frankly, I am more content with seasonal food, as this lessens our dependency on others and conserves petroleum for things I really need, like gasoline to get to work and oil products to maintain my vehicles. The loss of farmland is going to come back and bite us in the ass sooner or later.

Why the government has proven itself completely inept with our money thus far why on earth would you want to entrust them with more?

If our 'leaders' would do their job, this wouldn't be the case. If a private contractor can handle the roads better, then so be it. How would you propose funding it?

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by Scissors

I created a simple spreadsheet which calculates that for me and shows me where it's going.

Here are a few interesting tidbits about how much certain programs and agencies are costing me every year:

Social Security - $3,839
NASA - $110
DoD - $3,034
Medicare - $2,431
Unemployment/Welfare - $2,047
Interest on the national debt - $1,645
Medicaid - $1,316
War on terror - $914
Homeland security - $214
Department of the Interior - $73

Now break out unemployment (which is an insurance you buy) from welfare and tell us how much each costs.

Your salary is 166K right?

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by ARozanski

Which would be what? Auto are the second largest purchases people make, I'd like it to remain American, if possible. One of the arguments presented above against fuel taxes is people trying to replace old vehicles with new, a tax break would help ease the transition, along with pumping money into the automakers instead of the taxpayers doing it against their will.

again no reason whatsoever to give a tax break in this area, the automotive industry is no more special than other industries. The tax break mentality on everything but the individual has to stop.

Why would I want to live in a third world country? I have constant power, communications, reasonable roads, security and the right for personal property ownership. I don't see the need to have produce trucked in from foreign countries just to satisfy my appetite. Frankly, I am more content with seasonal food, as this lessens our dependency on others and conserves petroleum for things I really need, like gasoline to get to work and oil products to maintain my vehicles. The loss of farmland is going to come back and bite us in the ass sooner or later.

So in other words you have never lived where your produce is seasonal, but you assume this may be something you would prefer.
There is no shortage of oil whatsoever, with the discovery of shale oil we have opened up new avenue's to fuel our oil needs untell we find something suitable to take their place, if and when that is indeed possible.
your logic on farmland makes zero sense, we do not have the capablity currently to impliment complete and total isolationism nor should we. What we do not have is enough land to make us totally isolationists anymore and to propose it and then hope we can somehow make it happen merely puts us in a very very dangerous place.
History shows us that the most prosperous countries use other peoples recourses (how smart is that) and bennefit from a better lifestyle, you seem confused with that, on one hand you want it, on the other you want to give it up, which is it?

If our 'leaders' would do their job, this wouldn't be the case. If a private contractor can handle the roads better, then so be it. How would you propose funding it?

Our leaders would do our job as soon as we quit putting all aspects of our lives on them and forced them to do the basic things they should be, currently our roads for the amount of money given to the government flat out suck that should not be the case, but only way that will change is by voting the assholes out of office, by making informed educated decisions on how our politicians should act and maybe in the end thru the use of force which is what the second amendment is for.

As for private industry, I am not sure your point on this, as roads are built by privately contracted individuals. I have bid on a good amount of dirt road work, and IM here to tell you that the vast majority of said work is BS money that whatever gov agency has and needs to spend, so they waste it on bullshit projects.

[ARozanski]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

again no reason whatsoever to give a tax break in this area, the automotive industry is no more special than other industries. The tax break mentality on everything but the individual has to stop.

I wasn't trying to help the auto industry as a primary goal - Royal Tiger had mentioned that increased fuel taxes would place undo hardship on the guy with an old truck who may want to move up - I suggested a one or two time tax break to help that guy. Frankly, I don't care if anyone buys a new truck or not, I probably never will as I don't see the point in pissing my money away on depreciation, but to each his own.

So in other words you have never lived where your produce is seasonal, but you assume this may be something you would prefer.
There is no shortage of oil whatsoever, with the discovery of shale oil we have opened up new avenue's to fuel our oil needs untell we find something suitable to take their place, if and when that is indeed possible.
your logic on farmland makes zero sense, we do not have the capablity currently to impliment complete and total isolationism nor should we. What we do not have is enough land to make us totally isolationists anymore and to propose it and then hope we can somehow make it happen merely puts us in a very very dangerous place.

I have no need for a 2000 mile salad, I know myself and my family quite well, and I can safely say that we would adjust quite readily to local produce seasons.

Several oil fields are showing a reduction in output (Study finds slower oil field decline rate | Pipeline & Gas Journal | Find Articles at BNET , and TY454 has some info as well), here is an article on oil shale: http://fossil.energy.gov/programs/re.../40010-373.pdf

I do not maintain that oil is in immediate short supply, but I do not see the reason in wasting it on a large scale through unnecessary shipments of anything, including foreign food stuffs. I am also realistic enough to know that it will continue whether I personally think its a good idea or not.

History shows us that the most prosperous countries use other peoples recourses (how smart is that) and bennefit from a better lifestyle, you seem confused with that, on one hand you want it, on the other you want to give it up, which is it?

Our leaders would do our job as soon as we quit putting all aspects of our lives on them and forced them to do the basic things they should be, currently our roads for the amount of money given to the government flat out suck that should not be the case, but only way that will change is by voting the assholes out of office, by making informed educated decisions on how our politicians should act and maybe in the end thru the use of force which is what the second amendment is for.

How long have those prosperous countries been able to maintain their lifestyle while using up the resources you mention? I have no issue with using foreign oil, but we shouldn't be relying on it. We should be using renewable resources as much as possible in all phases of life, because when one resource shrinks to a certain level, wars will start to get what's left. Foreign food has security concerns, you really want this stuff coming here? China's contaminated food scandal widens - International Herald Tribune

As for private industry, I am not sure your point on this, as roads are built by privately contracted individuals. I have bid on a good amount of dirt road work, and IM here to tell you that the vast majority of said work is BS money that whatever gov agency has and needs to spend, so they waste it on bullshit projects.

They may be built by private contractors, a fact of which I am aware, but the money comes from taxation. I am assuming you don't mean to imply that private concerns will be able or willing to fund road construction projects?

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by Tripped1

The hell I will, and the 4th amendment says that I basically don't have to.

That one would be fought tooth and nail. Just like if they try to chip me or any other such nonsense, I'll excercise my right to haul ass and outsource myself.

You are aware that a lot of modern cars can be tracked already? Onstar and similar systems are standard on many cars, and those can GPS track you. They sell it as a safety feature -- "If you get locked out of your car, just call us and we can remotely unlock it for you", or "If you get in an accident, the system will automatically call emergency services for you".

For that matter, ODBII has some "features" that are problematic for privacy and all cars since 1996 have had that installed as mandated by the government. Which is how they would bring it around for this -- they wouldn't make you put it on a car or bike you already own; they'll just make it mandatory for the manufacturers to install them, and over time more and more vehicles will be so equipped, and few people will protest because (a) they won't even know it, most of them, (b) the systems won't be removable, and (c) relatively few people will be willing to forever limit themselves to vehicles made prior to the requirement.

PhilB