Prop 8 aftermath in California - Page 2

Parabellum · 11-07-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

It's because they're endowed by your creator, babe.

Only because the founding fathers weren't rational enough to be athiests, but that is a WHOLE different topic.

metalrat · 11-07-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkwood2k

according to YOUR God..

I have no personel relationship with any deity.
It is just my opinion.

Punkwood2k · 11-07-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

It's because they're endowed by your creator, babe.

Yeah.. you mean YOUR creator? I wasnt invented by some imaginary friend. the Flying Spaghetti Monster says so.

jerome_oneil · 11-07-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Only because the founding fathers weren't rational enough to be athiests, but that is a WHOLE different topic.

If your rights stem from some man made source, then they can be taken away by that same source.

Freedom as an endowment from your creator can not. That is why the founders wrote it that way. It ensured the basis on which everything else stands. Men are free because they are born that way, not because someone made them that way, and that can never be taken away.

jerome_oneil · 11-07-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkwood2k

Yeah.. you mean YOUR creator?

Right. They are endowed by your creator, just like I said.

Punkwood2k · 11-07-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

Right. They are endowed by your creator, just like I said.

All hail flying spaghetti monster and his noodly appendages!

Parabellum · 11-07-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

If your rights stem from some man made source, then they can be taken away by that same source.

Freedom as an endowment from your creator can not. That is why the founders wrote it that way. It ensured the basis on which everything else stands. Men are free because they are born that way, not because someone made them that way, and that can never be taken away.

The collapse in your logic is that it all presupposes a creator...which is a totally unsupported conjecture with absolutely no way to be proven or disproven. Its the philosophical equivalent of dividing by zero.

Rights are an inherent part of being a thinking, feeling creature, they are part of the natural, animal world that we are inherently linked to.

They are not a man made concern, this is one area where I totally disagree with Einstein (who argued that morality is purely human concern).

poulsen · 11-07-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabellum

THE ONLY THING NECESSARY FOR THE TRIUMPH OF EVIL IS FOR GOOD MEN TO DO NOTHING. - Edmund Burke.

haha I bet the pro Prop 8 people used that same quote!

jerome_oneil · 11-07-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parabellum

The collapse in your logic is that it all presupposes a creator...which is a totally unsupported conjecture with absolutely no way to be proven or disproven. Its the philosophical equivalent of dividing by zero.

It presupposes nothing. It posits that freedom is real, and if it is real, it must stem from some source.

And you're good enough to give us that source...

Quote:

Rights are an inherent part of being a thinking, feeling creature, they are part of the natural, animal world that we are inherently linked to.

Exactly. Or, the "Laws of Nature" and "Natures God", as the founders liked to say.

jerome_oneil · 11-07-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Punkwood2k

All hail flying spaghetti monster and his noodly appendages!

If that's what works for you. Ramen!

Parabellum · 11-07-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poulsen

haha I bet the pro Prop 8 people used that same quote!

I suspect you are right....all manner of wisdom has been perverted throughout the years for self serving ends.

Parabellum · 11-07-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

It presupposes nothing. It posits that freedom is real, and if it is real, it must stem from some source.

You are assuming that anything that exists must have a source.

I'm saying that the conditions of this planet are the source, and the only logical conclusion is that we as thinking and feeling beings have rights which are inherent to the fact that we can think, feel, and express ourselves with reason.

And to take it one step further back: Yes, I absolutely believe that life on this planet is the inevitable result of a billion billion random cosmic interactions, eventually forming order from chaos.

Not bearded man in the sky, just chaos and order.

Punkwood2k · 11-07-2008, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

It presupposes nothing. It posits that freedom is real, and if it is real, it must stem from some source.

And you're good enough to give us that source...

Exactly. Or, the "Laws of Nature" and "Natures God", as the founders liked to say.

counterpoint. I argue that freedom is NOT an in-alienable right. As a matter of fact it has been taken away thousands of times over human history, and most times as a result of religion.
I can take away your freedom with a pair of handcuffs and duct tape. for as long as I want. Entire countries dont have freedom.

so, if freedom can be taken away, then it is not a Law of nature, and therefore disproves your God using your own logic.

mac 1 · 11-07-2008, 04:38 PM

Let the cock suckers get married who cares, the sad part is that they can't breed so they resort to molesting

By the way I just might become religious and build a Mormon church in the back yard and invite all the homosexuals over, I'll be watching for them

mr. coffee · 11-07-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac 1

... the sad part is that they can't breed so they resort to molesting

I think you're referring to Catholics.