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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
That's great, as we should, but that doesn't negate the fact that we also kill and maim them by the thousands as collateral damage.
I'm only suggesting we be honest with ourselves when it comes to how our actions appear to those who later become our enemies. We seem to have this idea that since we convince ourselves that our intentions are good, and we'll help those we can, people won't be upset when we kill by the thousands.
Honestly, how is our actions in Iraq any different than BinLadin's attacking the US. At the end of the day, thousands of innocent people are dead because one group decided it was justified in forcing it's will on another. And in reality, the islamists just want us the fuck out of their countries. We're the aggressors in this fight.
Again, I just want a spade called a spade. Shit happens in war, I can accept that, but we should at least be man enough to be honest with ourselves and not be self-apologists.
First, I don't watch TV, haven't had it in years.
Second, no, I've never been in the military, and of course that means any photos of clear torture and human rights violations never actually happen. That means the US military DIDN'T kill millions in Vietnam, DIDN'T kill thousands, if not hundreds of thousands in Iraq, DIDN'T support terrorists and dictators when it served our purposes. Only those who served have the right to comment on such issues
Stop trying to deflect.
Who's trying to deflect? YOU are the one that made the comment TO ME about me "coming out from my TV" and mentioned "Clint Eastwood"...
You must have short-term memory loss. I was answering your jab at me.
First and foremost...take this as you will...
If you have NOT been in the military and witnessed / participated in a combat situation, you can't possibly know what it is like.
You can stay the high and mighty road all you want...but as long as we are fighting an enemy that is more than willing to blow up civilians, strap bombs to women and children, bomb trains and crash airliners into civilian targets we will have to fight the enemy on their terms.
Theorizing and discussing foreign policy, and what should and shouldn't be done by soliders on an internet message board is one thing. Witnessing the attacks by an enemy that will stop at nothing to accomplish their goals is another. One is real life...one is not.
You can discuss the rights and wrongs all day...and one thing will never change...the enemy (in this case extremist groups that believe in the "total jihad") will do WHATEVER they have to, to try and obtain their goal. And unless you've been missing the boat for several years...by their own admission, the ONLY way the jihad is concluded is for infidels (read NON MUSLIM people) to CONVERT or DIE. Period.
Bin Laden himself said "..there are no innocents..."
You tell me...
A member of a terrorist cell is caught in the planning stages of hi-jacking several civilian airliners. You have him in custody BEFORE the operation is carried out. He will not reveal any information about the attack under normal interrogation procedures.
Let's say that all the evidence you have points to this happening in the near future.
So you are telling me, that it would not be worth it to get the information from the prisoner, regardless of methods?
So 2 weeks later when 5 aircraft went down and 1000 civilians were killed, you could look at the loved ones of those people killed and tell them "I'm sorry, but we couldn't lower ourselves to the standards of the terrorists to get the info to prevent the attacks. The ends do not justify the means."
If you could...well..you're either a liar, delusional, or you just say you would because you've never had to make that decision.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
ctandc, that was an excellent post, and I agree wholeheartedly.
Sadly, the internet "experts" here will continue to believe they are experts and know more about military matters than those who have and continue to serve. Unfucking believable.
Oh, I just saw a poll today that McCain is supported buy 68% of active duty, Obama 23%.
Yeah, Fly, BHD, et al.....Obama is really supported by the military. NOT.
Arguing that you can't make this decision unless you have been emotionally affected by it (actually seeing the carnage in front of you) is the definition of irrationality.
Irrational - to disregard or act against reason.
CTanddc's post was nothing more than an appeal to emotion.
I'm not an internet tough guy, just a guy who values reason and logic over emotion.
EDIT: And we do this all the time. The US has a strict NO NEGOTIATION policy on kidnapping and ransom demands. We do tell the families of kidnapped citizens that we will NOT negotiate a release. Usually the people telling the families that are members of the military, or former military members now working for the government....so please do not try to sell me the "if you had been there you wouldn't be able to do the same" argument. People could and would tell a family that lost a loved one that we will NOT resort to torture to obtain shaky information. I would do it if I was in that position, and I don't expect you to believe me, since you clearly place emotion > reason.
ctandc, that was an excellent post, and I agree wholeheartedly.
Sadly, the internet "experts" here will continue to believe they are experts and know more about military matters than those who have and continue to serve. Unfucking believable.
Oh, I just saw a poll today that McCain is supported buy 68% of active duty, Obama 23%.
Yeah, Fly, BHD, et al.....Obama is really supported by the military. NOT.
Yup. Yer gonna explode when you have to choke on your words.
FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Barack Obama pushed further into John McCain’s turf on Sunday, winning the endorsement of retired Gen. Colin Powell and energizing a crowd at a packed arena near Fort Bragg.
Mr. Obama’s announcement of the endorsement ignited an eruption of applause at Crown Coliseum in Fayetteville. Yet it’s unclear how meaningful it will be among active-duty and retired members of the military, who tend to vote Republican.
Polls have consistently shown they favor John McCain, a former Navy pilot who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, by a sizable margin over Mr. Obama.
But campaign officials insist Mr. Obama is doing well among military voters, particularly in states such as North Carolina, where Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain by a narrow margin in recent polls.
“With so many great men and women from Fayetteville serving in our military, this is a city and a state that knows something about great soldiers,” Mr. Obama told the crowd of 10,200. “This morning, a great soldier, a great statesman and a great American has endorsed my campaign.”
Mr. McCain said he wasn’t surprised by the decision of Gen. Powell, who served as President Bush’s first secretary of state. A McCain spokesman said Mr. Powell’s endorsement wouldn’t make up for Mr. Obama’s relative lack of experience.
“Only an unproven and inexperienced politician like Barack Obama would have to rely so heavily on another man’s résumé in making the case for his own candidacy — and it shows that he’s just not ready,” said Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for Mr. McCain’s campaign.
Gen. Powell’s endorsement came with an added bonus for Mr. Obama: the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said he was troubled by the negative tone of Mr. McCain’s campaign. Mr. Powell called Mr. Obama a “transformational figure.”
Mr. McCain and his surrogates have implied in recent days that Mr. Obama is a socialist and tried to highlight the Democrat’s ties to Bill Ayers, a 1960s radical and former member of the Weather Underground. Mr. Ayers is now an education professor in Chicago, where he and Mr. Obama served on the board of an education reform project together in the mid-1990s.
“I think this goes too far, and I think it has made the McCain campaign look a little narrow,” Gen. Powell said in NBC’s Meet the Press.
Gen. Powell also condemned what he called suggestions by “senior members of my own party” that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.
“But the really right answer is, what if he is?” Gen. Powell said. “Is there anything wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no.”
“We have got to stop polarizing ourselves in this way,” Gen. Powell said. “John McCain is as nondiscriminatory as anyone I know, but I am troubled about the fact that within the party we have these kinds of expressions.”
David Axelrod, Mr. Obama’s chief strategist, said the Powell endorsement could help attract moderate Republicans who are disaffected with the direction of the party.
“We’re going to make a hard appeal for those voters,” he said.
Gen. Powell remains popular despite his role in selling the notion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq war. Several attendees at Sunday’s rally said they broke into cheers when they heard about the endorsement.
“We were just overwhelmed by it,” Valarie Benford, a former Army specialist who said her husband is an active-duty solder at Fort Bragg. In an Obama administration, she added, “We’re going to look out for the soldiers, we’re going to get this war done, and we’re going to get our troops home.”
A Military Times poll said Mr. McCain’s lead among military voters was 68 percent to 23 percent, with 6 percent undecided. The breakdown was about the same among both enlisted troops and officers.
But the publication noted that its sample was older, more senior in rank and less ethnically diverse than the overall armed forces.
Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain in North Carolina by a small margin, according to recent polls. Several voters said his support in North Carolina appeared to be much deeper than past Democratic candidates.
“Barack Obama is a new phenomenon,” said Armando Turnbull, a retired Army sergeant from Fayetteville. “These past eight years have been very stressful for us. They’ve been very stressful for me.
“I feel it in my heart that he’s going to do something to bring a change to this country, to bring respect back to the United States,” Mr. Turnbull said.
ENDORSEMENTS
Barack Obama now leads John McCain, 104-32, in the race for newspaper endorsements, according to Editor & Publisher. The Houston Chronicle and Austin American-Statesman, which backed President Bush in 2004, endorsed Mr. Obama. Among the large papers backing Mr. McCain are The New York Post and The Dallas Morning News.
__________________
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"The strongest enemy of tyranny is a long memory." - Phil DeBar
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Last edited by flylooper : 10-21-2008 at 04:43 PM.
As long as the US military works for the civilian government, so what. Being a POW is not, by itself, a qualification for CIC.
db
And being a smooth-talking Senator is not, BY ITSELF, a qualification for CIC.
That's a mirror quote to your response. I have NEVER seen anything like the Obama Supporters that post online..in my life.
I don't care that you support Obama..that's your RIGHT as an American Citizen. But why does everything said against Obama automatically go to something bad about McCain.
So maybe the majority of the military doesn't support Obama, OR McCain..but an Independent..or someone who isn't running.
What snappy response then?
The Presidential Election shouldn't be a popularity contest...but that's what is now.
FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Barack Obama pushed further into John McCain’s turf on Sunday, winning the endorsement of retired Gen. Colin Powell and energizing a crowd at a packed arena near Fort Bragg.
Mr. Obama’s announcement of the endorsement ignited an eruption of applause at Crown Coliseum in Fayetteville. Yet it’s unclear how meaningful it will be among active-duty and retired members of the military, who tend to vote Republican.
Polls have consistently shown they favor John McCain, a former Navy pilot who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, by a sizable margin over Mr. Obama.
But campaign officials insist Mr. Obama is doing well among military voters, particularly in states such as North Carolina, where Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain by a narrow margin in recent polls.
“With so many great men and women from Fayetteville serving in our military, this is a city and a state that knows something about great soldiers,” Mr. Obama told the crowd of 10,200. “This morning, a great soldier, a great statesman and a great American has endorsed my campaign.”
Mr. McCain said he wasn’t surprised by the decision of Gen. Powell, who served as President Bush’s first secretary of state. A McCain spokesman said Mr. Powell’s endorsement wouldn’t make up for Mr. Obama’s relative lack of experience.
“Only an unproven and inexperienced politician like Barack Obama would have to rely so heavily on another man’s résumé in making the case for his own candidacy — and it shows that he’s just not ready,” said Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for Mr. McCain’s campaign.
Gen. Powell’s endorsement came with an added bonus for Mr. Obama: the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said he was troubled by the negative tone of Mr. McCain’s campaign. Mr. Powell called Mr. Obama a “transformational figure.”
Mr. McCain and his surrogates have implied in recent days that Mr. Obama is a socialist and tried to highlight the Democrat’s ties to Bill Ayers, a 1960s radical and former member of the Weather Underground. Mr. Ayers is now an education professor in Chicago, where he and Mr. Obama served on the board of an education reform project together in the mid-1990s.
“I think this goes too far, and I think it has made the McCain campaign look a little narrow,” Gen. Powell said in NBC’s Meet the Press.
Gen. Powell also condemned what he called suggestions by “senior members of my own party” that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.
“But the really right answer is, what if he is?” Gen. Powell said. “Is there anything wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no.”
“We have got to stop polarizing ourselves in this way,” Gen. Powell said. “John McCain is as nondiscriminatory as anyone I know, but I am troubled about the fact that within the party we have these kinds of expressions.”
David Axelrod, Mr. Obama’s chief strategist, said the Powell endorsement could help attract moderate Republicans who are disaffected with the direction of the party.
“We’re going to make a hard appeal for those voters,” he said.
Gen. Powell remains popular despite his role in selling the notion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq war. Several attendees at Sunday’s rally said they broke into cheers when they heard about the endorsement.
“We were just overwhelmed by it,” Valarie Benford, a former Army specialist who said her husband is an active-duty solder at Fort Bragg. In an Obama administration, she added, “We’re going to look out for the soldiers, we’re going to get this war done, and we’re going to get our troops home.”
A Military Times poll said Mr. McCain’s lead among military voters was 68 percent to 23 percent, with 6 percent undecided. The breakdown was about the same among both enlisted troops and officers.
But the publication noted that its sample was older, more senior in rank and less ethnically diverse than the overall armed forces.
Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain in North Carolina by a small margin, according to recent polls. Several voters said his support in North Carolina appeared to be much deeper than past Democratic candidates.
“Barack Obama is a new phenomenon,” said Armando Turnbull, a retired Army sergeant from Fayetteville. “These past eight years have been very stressful for us. They’ve been very stressful for me.
“I feel it in my heart that he’s going to do something to bring a change to this country, to bring respect back to the United States,” Mr. Turnbull said.
Some key points in there..
Is NC a big "military" state? Yes. Is Fayetteville a big military town? OH YES...Ft. Bragg, Pope AFB...
And I have to wonder.
What is one of Obama's big campaign promises?
Getting soliders home from Iraq
And since MANY of the ACTIVE DUTY soliders stationed around Fayetteville are DEPLOYED, who would make up the majority of the crowd for Obama?
Dependents and family members of soliders. As quoted in your article when a WIFE of a soldiers speaks up. What wife wouldn't want their husband to come home sooner?
What's truly funny...actually sad...that if HALF the effort and brain-power used by people to JUSTIFY their chosen candidate, and ATTACK the other candidate, was used to solve the world's problems...
Hell..no one would be hungry. IED's would be useless against our troops, we'd be able to fly to the moon for chump change, cars would run on Hydrogen and ATM fees would be abolished.....
And being a smooth-talking Senator is not, BY ITSELF, a qualification for CIC.
That's a mirror quote to your response. I have NEVER seen anything like the Obama Supporters that post online..in my life.
I don't care that you support Obama..that's your RIGHT as an American Citizen. But why does everything said against Obama automatically go to something bad about McCain.
So maybe the majority of the military doesn't support Obama, OR McCain..but an Independent..or someone who isn't running.
What snappy response then?
The Presidential Election shouldn't be a popularity contest...but that's what is now.
/Serious
You describe BO as smooth-talking. I describe him as unabashedly intelligent.
Everything I've read about him makes me think that he's mentally and emotionally equipped for the job.
He seems to be able to think, and to analyze issues from all pertinent viewpoints. In this, he's diametrically opposite the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld mindset that, once a 'decision' is made, it is immune from further analysis.
Some call that "staying the course": I call it rigidity and a refusal to engage in self-analysis.
It's your right to vote for McCain, as it is mine to vote for BO. I only ask that you do your homework (as I have done mine), and make your decision based on the most compelling documentation.
db
__________________
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FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — Barack Obama pushed further into John McCain’s turf on Sunday, winning the endorsement of retired Gen. Colin Powell and energizing a crowd at a packed arena near Fort Bragg.
Mr. Obama’s announcement of the endorsement ignited an eruption of applause at Crown Coliseum in Fayetteville. Yet it’s unclear how meaningful it will be among active-duty and retired members of the military, who tend to vote Republican.
Polls have consistently shown they favor John McCain, a former Navy pilot who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, by a sizable margin over Mr. Obama.
But campaign officials insist Mr. Obama is doing well among military voters, particularly in states such as North Carolina, where Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain by a narrow margin in recent polls.
“With so many great men and women from Fayetteville serving in our military, this is a city and a state that knows something about great soldiers,” Mr. Obama told the crowd of 10,200. “This morning, a great soldier, a great statesman and a great American has endorsed my campaign.”
Mr. McCain said he wasn’t surprised by the decision of Gen. Powell, who served as President Bush’s first secretary of state. A McCain spokesman said Mr. Powell’s endorsement wouldn’t make up for Mr. Obama’s relative lack of experience.
“Only an unproven and inexperienced politician like Barack Obama would have to rely so heavily on another man’s résumé in making the case for his own candidacy — and it shows that he’s just not ready,” said Tucker Bounds, a spokesman for Mr. McCain’s campaign.
Gen. Powell’s endorsement came with an added bonus for Mr. Obama: the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said he was troubled by the negative tone of Mr. McCain’s campaign. Mr. Powell called Mr. Obama a “transformational figure.”
Mr. McCain and his surrogates have implied in recent days that Mr. Obama is a socialist and tried to highlight the Democrat’s ties to Bill Ayers, a 1960s radical and former member of the Weather Underground. Mr. Ayers is now an education professor in Chicago, where he and Mr. Obama served on the board of an education reform project together in the mid-1990s.
“I think this goes too far, and I think it has made the McCain campaign look a little narrow,” Gen. Powell said in NBC’s Meet the Press.
Gen. Powell also condemned what he called suggestions by “senior members of my own party” that Mr. Obama is a Muslim.
“But the really right answer is, what if he is?” Gen. Powell said. “Is there anything wrong with being a Muslim in this country? The answer is no.”
“We have got to stop polarizing ourselves in this way,” Gen. Powell said. “John McCain is as nondiscriminatory as anyone I know, but I am troubled about the fact that within the party we have these kinds of expressions.”
David Axelrod, Mr. Obama’s chief strategist, said the Powell endorsement could help attract moderate Republicans who are disaffected with the direction of the party.
“We’re going to make a hard appeal for those voters,” he said.
Gen. Powell remains popular despite his role in selling the notion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq war. Several attendees at Sunday’s rally said they broke into cheers when they heard about the endorsement.
“We were just overwhelmed by it,” Valarie Benford, a former Army specialist who said her husband is an active-duty solder at Fort Bragg. In an Obama administration, she added, “We’re going to look out for the soldiers, we’re going to get this war done, and we’re going to get our troops home.”
A Military Times poll said Mr. McCain’s lead among military voters was 68 percent to 23 percent, with 6 percent undecided. The breakdown was about the same among both enlisted troops and officers.
But the publication noted that its sample was older, more senior in rank and less ethnically diverse than the overall armed forces.
Mr. Obama leads Mr. McCain in North Carolina by a small margin, according to recent polls. Several voters said his support in North Carolina appeared to be much deeper than past Democratic candidates.
“Barack Obama is a new phenomenon,” said Armando Turnbull, a retired Army sergeant from Fayetteville. “These past eight years have been very stressful for us. They’ve been very stressful for me.
“I feel it in my heart that he’s going to do something to bring a change to this country, to bring respect back to the United States,” Mr. Turnbull said.
ENDORSEMENTS
Barack Obama now leads John McCain, 104-32, in the race for newspaper endorsements, according to Editor & Publisher. The Houston Chronicle and Austin American-Statesman, which backed President Bush in 2004, endorsed Mr. Obama. Among the large papers backing Mr. McCain are The New York Post and The Dallas Morning News.
It galls you that our military supports McCain over Obama by 3 to 1 does it not?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctandc
And being a smooth-talking Senator is not, BY ITSELF, a qualification for CIC.
That's a mirror quote to your response. I have NEVER seen anything like the Obama Supporters that post online..in my life.
I don't care that you support Obama..that's your RIGHT as an American Citizen. But why does everything said against Obama automatically go to something bad about McCain.
So maybe the majority of the military doesn't support Obama, OR McCain..but an Independent..or someone who isn't running.
What snappy response then?
The Presidential Election shouldn't be a popularity contest...but that's what is now.
As a person who opposed the Iraq invasion from the outset, I have seen far worse and far worse recently. Obama supporters who post online don't hold a candle to the fascist pricks who threatened me and my family when we didn't toe the line in 2002. Sorry, but YOU FAIL!
As far as the military supporting Obama, they tend to vote Republican. The military is the most conservative organization in the country. The military, any military, is a conservative, heirarchical organization by nature, and necessarily so. As a result, people who gravitate toward the military will also gravitate to a heirarchical political party like the Republicans. It doesn't bother me one way or another, it just is.
And, if presidential elections were more than a dumbass popularity contest, dumb'ya would have stayed in Texas where he couldn't have done near the damage he has done. McCain would have been the Republican nominee in 2000.
__________________
Member in good standing of the global elitist agenda
Who's trying to deflect? YOU are the one that made the comment TO ME about me "coming out from my TV" and mentioned "Clint Eastwood"...
You must have short-term memory loss. I was answering your jab at me.
You're inability to follow the sequential progression of this dialogue is becoming irritating. I was not the first to make references to tv/movies, you were.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctandc
If you have NOT been in the military and witnessed / participated in a combat situation, you can't possibly know what it is like.
Irrelevant. I do not need to know what murdering someone is like for me to know that it's morally wrong. This is simply a tactic by which you attempt to quash criticism of the subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctandc
You can stay the high and mighty road all you want...but as long as we are fighting an enemy that is more than willing to blow up civilians, strap bombs to women and children, bomb trains and crash airliners into civilian targets we will have to fight the enemy on their terms.
This is where your shortsightedness fails logic. WE are the ones who send autonomous missiles into other countries from a thousand miles away. When they happen to go astray and kill and/or maim innocent people, we say "oops". WE are the ones who support dictators who'll sell us cheap oil. When those dictators oppress, torture and murder their own people, we turn a blind eye. WE then criticize those people who live amidst oppression, chaos and war, partially because of US, when they use whatever means they can to fight us.
You can not disregard what the "enemy" has had to endure because of us in your criticism of the tactics they use against us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctandc
You tell me...
A member of a terrorist cell is caught in the planning stages of hi-jacking several civilian airliners. You have him in custody BEFORE the operation is carried out. He will not reveal any information about the attack under normal interrogation procedures.
So you concoct the most unlikely of scenarios where by one single person who, as luck would have it, the US manages to take into custody, holds the key to exactly what, where and when a terrorist attack will happen. And this is your justification for allowing a policy of torture by none other than the US government - an organization who has a stellar reputation for altruism
Listen to yourself man, I hate to keep bringing up a TV/movie connection, but your fantasy here is directly out of Hollywood's playbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctandc
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
And people elsewhere in the world are killed in their sleep, where they work and where they play by these same rough men who stand by to mindlessly carry out the orders of incompetent politicians, which in turns creates generation after generation of hatred for Americans, and breads people who's only goal in life is to take the lives of Americans, there by making it impossible for Americans to sleep peaceably in their beds at night.
It's a vicious cycle caused by incompetence and supported by ignorance, and you are (or were) a part of it.
You inject yourself into the middle of a problem that has existed for decades, and you're either willfully ignorant of, or actively refuse to acknowledge, that your participation creates the very conditions which then necessitates your actions. Since you create the hatred you fight, you accomplish nothing.
Bottom line: If we endorse torture, we are no better than our enemies.
I don't want to hear any more shit about "its necessary to protect Americans".
Bullshit...its widely known that information extracted through torture is highly unreliable....so not only is it a poor tool, it lowers us to their level.
I will NOT endorse a breech of ethics for security...that is the road to hell.
Agreed.
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