CIA Tactics Endorsed in Secret Memos

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by MontereyDave

Honestly, the public debate about the issue and the need for open source publications (and politicians) to pubicly define in explicit detail everything that an interrogator can or can't do, greatly undermines the effectiveness of our interrogators ... afterall the most effective fear we could potentially use in the course of an interrogation is the fear of the unknown (fear of what will happen next, fear of what the interrogator will do next, etc). But, now they know the our limits (probably more so than any adversary in history).

This is one place where we will fundamentally disagree.

I believe transparency of government and honesty to its citizens is more important than whether or not some fundamentalist nutjob knows to prepare for waterboarding.

Remember, that TORTURE HAS PROVEN TO YIELD VERY POOR INFORMATION...so in my opinion, you cannot argue that the slightly increased effectiveness from the enemy not knowing the techniques is more important than our government being open about civil rights.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by MontereyDave

Honestly, the public debate about the issue and the need for open source publications (and politicians) to pubicly define in explicit detail everything that an interrogator can or can't do, greatly undermines the effectiveness of our interrogators ... afterall the most effective fear we could potentially use in the course of an interrogation is the fear of the unknown (fear of what will happen next, fear of what the interrogator will do next, etc). But, now they know the our limits (probably more so than any adversary in history).

Oh please dave, thats just bullshit.
We crossed a line, and we know it. It needs to be defined. Our military prided itself on supposedly (Im sure it did happen) not torturing Germans and now your saying we need to do whatever. Bullshit.

Look our police extract information all the time (sometimes not so accruatly) without water boarding, putting cigs in ears backwards and all kinds of other bullshit the military is using. Its fucking wrong.
I watched a thing by some people who were part of some of the IRAQI torture' apparently the interigator would come in, and just scream over and over again "your a terrorist, your a terrorist" day in and day out, so what would the guy finally say? well gee, big surprise. Whatever he wanted.
They said it was bullshit.
marius De Saxe military stratagist stated in his book that torture although fun did not supply accurate information and it was usually the opposite just to get people to quit and also troops are told false plans for traps (common used by our military in ww2 should troops be captured).

When this all came out initially Im sure it was supposed to scare people but history has shown it does the opposite, and it fuels the enemy.
And it did just that.

[Dakota Kid]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

Oh please dave, thats just bullshit.
We crossed a line, and we know it. It needs to be defined. Our military prided itself on supposedly (Im sure it did happen) not torturing Germans and now your saying we need to do whatever. Bullshit.

Look our police extract information all the time (sometimes not so accruatly) without water boarding, putting cigs in ears backwards and all kinds of other bullshit the military is using. Its fucking wrong.
I watched a thing by some people who were part of some of the IRAQI torture' apparently the interigator would come in, and just scream over and over again "your a terrorist, your a terrorist" day in and day out, so what would the guy finally say? well gee, big surprise. Whatever he wanted.
They said it was bullshit.
marius De Saxe military stratagist stated in his book that torture although fun did not supply accurate information and it was usually the opposite just to get people to quit and also troops are told false plans for traps (common used by our military in ww2 should troops be captured).

When this all came out initially Im sure it was supposed to scare people but history has shown it does the opposite, and it fuels the enemy.
And it did just that.

I think you completely missed daves point.

[636blurr]

Eh could be im doing bookwork while reading on here, not a good combination.

[Dakota Kid]

Focus, man. We have high standards here!

[User Name]

This issue of torture is one of the major reasons I'm so hard on our military, and our country as a whole. It, along with other facts, prove that we are, unquestionably, no better than the terrorists.

They killed 3000 innocent civilians on 9/11, we killed many times that in Iraqi civilians (deemed collateral damage).

They beheaded a handful of people, gruesome as it may be, there's no doubt our "interrogation techniques" have caused the deaths of at least as many.

They justify their methods as necessary in their holy war, we justify ours as necessary for security.

The biggest difference is that while they make no apologies for their actions and methods, we stand on our soap boxes and proclaim how righteous we are, and we lie and deceive to cover up the reality that we're just as savage as they.

Only when we decide to truly live up to a higher standard will we be justified in our outrage at being the targets of terrorism. Until then, as much as it's a hard pill to swallow, we deserve it.

[Tally Whacker]

Torture is Not OK under any circumstances, ever.

To make it more clear, No torture ever. At all.

Ever.














.

[shah269]

Can we hold the boy king accountable for his sins upon leaving the white house?
Last I checked torture is a crime in the USA.

[636blurr]

^^ wasnt commited in the USA. It has already been tried, the definitions of torture are supposedly within limits.

[SXSMITH]

Originally Posted by Tally Whacker

Torture is Not OK under any circumstances, ever.

To make it more clear, No torture ever. At all.

Ever.
.

I'm pretty sure that's why we don't do it.

[Gaolee]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

^^ wasnt commited in the USA. It has already been tried, the definitions of torture are supposedly within limits.

Plausable deniablitiy seems to run in families.

[Dakota Kid]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

This is one place where we will fundamentally disagree.

I believe transparency of government and honesty to its citizens is more important than whether or not some fundamentalist nutjob knows to prepare for waterboarding.

Remember, that TORTURE HAS PROVEN TO YIELD VERY POOR INFORMATION...so in my opinion, you cannot argue that the slightly increased effectiveness from the enemy not knowing the techniques is more important than our government being open about civil rights.

Para, think of it this way. The military is an instrument of our foreign policy, like it or not. It is our war machine. In war, the objective is to make your enemy submit unconditionally. It is the final "option" if you will, yes, we all wish the world could do without militaries, but unfortunately that will never be the case.

So....now we need to keep war secrets from our enemies. Remember the old WWII slogan from the Navy, "loose lips sink ships"....well it still applies. We should NEVER telegraph our methods, techniques and plas to our enemies, and I include interrogation tactics with that. That is why much of our military information is classifed as at least secret, much of it Top Secret. Only the operators and decision makers who have a demonstrated need to know have access to this information.

So, IMO, transparancy is misguided as it pertains to our warfighting.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by Dakota Kid

So....now we need to keep war secrets from our enemies.

You'll never be able to keep war secrets from the rest of the world. People talk. To relieve stress, to cope with what they've done, people talk. So torture, especially for a country that prides itself on it's supposed morals, will never be kept secret. And when you torture prisoners, you INSTANTLY and COMPLETELY loose ALL legitimate complaint when it's done to your side. You can't demonize the enemy for their methods when yours are no better.

And when an administration outright endorses torture, they immediately put every soldier at increased risk, and make every American a target. You may defeat the enemy, but in using torture to do so, you bread the next generation of enemies.

[SlowGoose]

Originally Posted by SXSMITH

I'm pretty sure that's why we don't do it.

Snerk. I see what you did there. Only legalize with the sleaze of Alberto Gonzales dripping from it makes that statement true.

[MontereyDave]

Originally Posted by User Name

You'll never be able to keep war secrets from the rest of the world. People talk. To relieve stress, to cope with what they've done, people talk. So torture, especially for a country that prides itself on it's supposed morals, will never be kept secret. And when you torture prisoners, you INSTANTLY and COMPLETELY loose ALL legitimate complaint when it's done to your side. You can't demonize the enemy for their methods when yours are no better.

And when an administration outright endorses torture, they immediately put every soldier at increased risk, and make every American a target. You may defeat the enemy, but in using torture to do so, you bread the next generation of enemies.

That is not an interrogation technique. That is a criminal act and the soldiers resonsible for it are behind bars for 10 year prison terms (SPC Charles Graner and PFC Lyndee England).

The US military does not condone or allow torture (like that pic or cigars in ears, etc). The issue of waterboarding deserves debate about whether or not it is torture (but the debate should be behind closed doors by policymakers with Top Secret clearances).