CIA Tactics Endorsed in Secret Memos

[636blurr]

Ohhh this is getting good and its not me in it for once.

[Dakota Kid]

ENJOY the asswhipping!.

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by User Name

Ouch, that hurt...

That was...uuhh....I see what you did there.

Originally Posted by User Name

Exactly where did I "come across like I know what they go through"? Again, you use this utter bull shit line of reasoning to quash discussion of the subject.

You directly compared all US Soldiers to terrorists. You play Monday morning QB to the military...but yet you have never served in the military. And who's trying to "quash" discussion on the subject? If I wanted to do that, I would just ignore you. You only continue to post because someone responds to you.

Originally Posted by User Name

My point was that a result of our actions is the significant injury and loss of life amongst innocent civilians in the countries we fight and this, in turn, breeds the exact mistrust and hatred we fight. This has exactly ZERO to do with what soldiers go through, it's an analysis of policies and their unintended and undesirable results.

And I'm asking where all this began? Was that this country's fault as well? So I'm assuming you are going to lump the United Nations in there too, since they try to use us as their World Police Force.

But you are wrong when you say it was ZERO to do with what soldiers go through, when you have bad mouthed U.S. Soldiers as a whole more than once, and have basically said "Screw you" to everyone who ever wore a uniform for this country.

Originally Posted by User Name

I can only assume you're continual diversion into the daily lives of soldiers and contention that only soldiers are qualified to participate in that discussion is because you'd prefer to remain willfully ignorant to the fact that, as your actions create exactly what you fight, your service is, at best, utterly worthless and, at worse, self defeating in the larger analysis of foreign policy.

Diversion? I never said only solider were qualified to participate in DISCUSSION... I did say it didn't seem right for people to make judgements and say what they would do , when they've never been in that position.

And now you insult me and every person who has ever been in the military with "your service is, at best, utterly worthless and, at worse, self defeating in the larger analysis of foreign policy."

How the fuck do you rationalize what you just posted? You are a keyboard warrior....spewing out this garbage, bad-mouthing every person who ever fought for this country. This will be my last response to you...because it's obvious all you know are insults.

I truly hope that there never comes a time when you know what it's like to lose a family member to an act of terrorism or violence....and I truly hope that you don't really believe that all the people who have fought and died for this country, that their service was "WORTHLESS".

If you do I truly feel sorry for you.

It made me angry at first...but now, not so much. Just sad for you. What nasty things you must have been through to harbor that much hate. With those statements you made, you're on the same footing with the religous idiots who protest at soldiers' funerals, telling their loved ones they will rot in hell....

Originally Posted by User Name

And you, sir, are the epitome of the ignorant fucking thug who serves the corruption and shortsightedness that puts everyone in danger, and then has the gall to heap praise upon yourself for such service.

You can call me anyname you wish. But please don't say I heaped praise upon myself..because I never did. If it even came off like that for once second, that was never my intention. I've lost too many friends to even think that...they gave everything for what they believed.

Originally Posted by User Name

You continue to miss the point entirely, and sadly, everyone looses as a result.

I guess I have missed the point. All I've seen from you is bad-mouthing all our soldiers, the country and everything else. Must be nice to be perfect. Let me know how that works out for you.

Originally Posted by User Name

And exactly where have I suggested you don't have the right to voice your opinion?

Never said you did. I said the difference was, even though I don't agree with you, I would fight for your right to express it. Would you?

Originally Posted by User Name

Ok, here you go:

On July 4, 1776, the United States signed the Declaration of Independence, creating a country who guaranteed it's citizens the right to freedom of religion, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The evil terrorist have hated freedom and anyone who possess it since the dawn of time, and therefore attacked us on 9/11/01.

Wow..

Just...wow..

Yeah that was real...umm... I have no idea what the fuck you did there.

I asked in response to your statement...and you give that?

Okay. Good Luck to you..

Originally Posted by User Name

Ha!! I always have to laugh when the soldier of today has to liken whatever two bit, pissant dictator they fight to the entire military forces of some of the worlds most powerful countries to justify their service.

I don't have to justify anything. Sounds like you have to justify things to yourself. I hope you are able to do so.

Originally Posted by User Name

This may come as a shock, but Saddam, Bin Ladin, et. all are (were) not the German and Japanese military. They don't, and never did, possess any ability to cause any actual threat to our democracy, so don't insult me by suggesting you and your fellow soldiers today are fighting to defend the freedoms I enjoy.

Get real dude.

Wow...okay. I'm just leaving that one alone. It won't change what you believe.

It's the way it's always been....there have always been men willing to lay their life on the line...and those who aren't.

Have a nice life.

[Dakota Kid]

USER NAME:

Your views are reprehensible. As a twenty year military man, you make me sick.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by Dakota Kid

USER NAME:

Your views are reprehensible. As a twenty year military man, you make me sick.

Dakota Kid, I could give a flying rat's ass what you think of my views. And your ignorance sickens me, so I guess we're even.

[Dakota Kid]

Originally Posted by User Name

Dakota Kid, I could give a flying rat's ass what you think of my views. And your ignorance sickens me, so I guess we're even.

Whatever, boy. At least you were handed your ass here in public.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by User Name

Originally Posted by User Name
This is where your shortsightedness fails logic. WE are the ones who send autonomous missiles into other countries from a thousand miles away. When they happen to go astray and kill and/or maim innocent people, we say "oops". WE are the ones who support dictators who'll sell us cheap oil. When those dictators oppress, torture and murder their own people, we turn a blind eye. WE then criticize those people who live amidst oppression, chaos and war, partially because of US, when they use whatever means they can to fight us.

And that is true, but again, who would you rather invade your nieghborhood, the American military that makes a legitimate attempt to take civilian casualties into consideration and to minimize them, or a third world country that invades, rapes tortures and kills anything that moves? The cheap oil is all of our fault, we demand it as a country ,we demand everything cheap and we demand access to everything, we are the ones that push the country and we are the ones who turn a blind eye, IM curious, why is it the US is getting hammered on when Britain and france have been in the middleast for how long? Was it ok then?

My point was that a result of our actions is the significant injury and loss of life amongst innocent civilians in the countries we fight and this, in turn, breeds the exact mistrust and hatred we fight. This has exactly ZERO to do with what soldiers go through, it's an analysis of policies and their unintended and undesirable results.

And that is true to a point, so what about the hate and mistrust given to the men and women of this country when they are sent off to do the deeds of the politicions we elect. Where is the accountability of those democrats who did everything they could to undermine this war, to cause as many american deaths as possible, so they could be in power come the next elections, what does that count for?

I can only assume you're continual diversion into the daily lives of soldiers and contention that only soldiers are qualified to participate in that discussion is because you'd prefer to remain willfully ignorant to the fact that, as your actions create exactly what you fight, your service is, at best, utterly worthless and, at worse, self defeating in the larger analysis of foreign policy.

We live in a representative democracy, we have elected those who tell those in the military what to do. Again, we all should accept full blame for this.

This may come as a shock, but Saddam, Bin Ladin, et. all are (were) not the German and Japanese military. They don't, and never did, possess any ability to cause any actual threat to our democracy, so don't insult me by suggesting you and your fellow soldiers today are fighting to defend the freedoms I enjoy.

.

I fully agree with this statement.

One thing to remember user, is iM not sure if you realize it, but you have changed since your encounter with the window of an SUV, you used to be full of alot of fun but you have been far more bitter latley, hell, your starting to sound more like me
Serious man, you have changed, now Imagine if someone had grabbed you by the back of your head and shoved it thru that window, that changes a person even more, Cdantc is right, every one of our life experiences changes us, nobody can ever understand what its like to be in another persons shoe's, while the vast, vast majority of our military personal never see combat, those that do, do whatever they have to do to get home, mentally it has to be trying. When your on the business end of a weopon your perception of life changes right there when it happens in a foriegn country life changes even more. I wont pretend to know what he went thru, and he wont pretend to know what I went thru. All IM telling you is have some patience with guys like ctandc, he's been good to debate, hasnt ran around with a swelled head and for christ sakes, I havnt had to invite him to a few rounds in the ring with me eather lol.
Serious man, we are all in this together, like it or not, and I can assure you, when your boy is Elected, we are still going to be in IRAQ, we are going to still be in Afganistan, and more than likely in pakistan and who knows where else.
Im against both wars, I have been back and forth on the IRAQ, but never saw a need for the afganistan war, but I know enough that our politicions never tell the truth, and war is big business for those that pad the pockets of our elected officials.

Just again, remember, we are all in this together.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by ctandc

You directly compared all US Soldiers to terrorists.

Terrorists go into other countries and kill innocent people to further agenda. Soldiers are sent to other countries and kill innocent people in the processes of carrying out their orders.

Explain how they're different.

Originally Posted by ctandc

And I'm asking where all this began?

Dude, please do some research, the information is out there for anyone who wants it. If you don't know history it's because you don't want to know. The problems we're dealing with today are 100% from our doing.

You talk down on me for having an opinion even though I've never served in the military. Damn right I've never served, and that's because I was given ONE life and before I'd risk that ONE life to join a fight, I'd want to know what that fight is all about.

This fight is all about one thing - control of middle east oil. Period. If the middle east didn't have oil, we wouldn't even know where it was on a map. And in our desire to control that oil, we have supported the most despicable people that have ever walked the face of the earth.

The CIA supported, even encouraged, the most extreme Muslim fundamentalists to fight the Soviets.

We supported Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
We supported Osama Bin Laden
We supported Saddam Hussein
We supported the Mujaheddin
We supported the Taliban

How ironic that we're now fighting EVERY single one of these people and groups.

Originally Posted by ctandc

But you are wrong when you say it was ZERO to do with what soldiers go through, when you have bad mouthed U.S. Soldiers as a whole more than once, and have basically said "Screw you" to everyone who ever wore a uniform for this country.

I only say "screw you" to those who ignorantly or willfully support a government policy which results in the utter destruction of the lives of innocent people in the name of securing oil. Both my grandfathers fought ACTUAL enemies, who posed ACTUAL threats to this country, and they both had my utmost respect.

People who run off to fight, as I said, some two bit dictator we put in power a few decades ago in some puissant country, and then compare their fight to those of my grandfather's deserve no respect in my book.

Originally Posted by ctandc

I truly hope that you don't really believe that all the people who have fought and died for this country, that their service was "WORTHLESS".

And I truly hope that you don't really believe that every order given by a government to it's soldiers has the best interest of the PEOPLE of that country at heart.

Originally Posted by ctandc

If you do I truly feel sorry for you.

And I you.

Originally Posted by ctandc

What nasty things you must have been through to harbor that much hate. With those statements you made, you're on the same footing with the religous idiots who protest at soldiers' funerals, telling their loved ones they will rot in hell....

And what a poor upbringing you must have had to allow yourself to be so manipulated by your government. War is big business, big business controls the government, the government controls it's military. In essence, you work for big business, laying your life on the line so they can profit.

As ignorance is bliss and the truth hurts, for your own sake, I truly hope you remain ignorant.

Originally Posted by ctandc

You can call me anyname you wish. But please don't say I heaped praise upon myself..because I never did.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Your welcome. It's not a problem...

Your words, not mine.

[Parabellum]

The CIA supported, even encouraged, the most extreme Muslim fundamentalists to fight the Soviets.

We supported Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
We supported Osama Bin Laden
We supported Saddam Hussein
We supported the Mujaheddin
We supported the Taliban

How ironic that we're now fighting EVERY single one of these people and groups.

This is an undisputed fact and I hope no one tries to deny it.

We financed BOTH SIDES of the Iraq-Iran conflict and now people wonder why they hate us????

I love this country....enough to admit its flaws.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

And that is true, but again, who would you rather invade your nieghborhood, the American military that makes a legitimate attempt to take civilian casualties into consideration and to minimize them, or a third world country that invades, rapes tortures and kills anything that moves?

But this thread began with the CIA endorsing a policy of torture. There have been numerous examples of our military raping, torturing and murdering innocent civilians in war. We can (and do) rage war on entire countries, which cost the lives of countless innocent people. And in most cases, we supported the extremest who invade other countries, raping, torturing and killing anything that moves.

All I'm suggesting is that we consider the situation from the perspective of an outsider - someone with no dog in the fight. If you trace the lines from cause to effect, you'll see that we have PLENTY of blood on our hands.

Originally Posted by 636blurr

The cheap oil is all of our fault, we demand it as a country ,we demand everything cheap and we demand access to everything, we are the ones that push the country and we are the ones who turn a blind eye, IM curious, why is it the US is getting hammered on when Britain and france have been in the middleast for how long? Was it ok then?

I completely agree, on all points.

Originally Posted by 636blurr

Where is the accountability of those democrats who did everything they could to undermine this war, to cause as many american deaths as possible, so they could be in power come the next elections, what does that count for?

First, I truly hope you don't believe that the Democrats undermined the war (which I fail to see how they did) specifically to cause American deaths specifically to win the next election.

Second, the Democrats are just as guilty as the Republicans for supporting policies that have backfired in our faces with respect to terrorism. Carter was, in fact, the one who started the escalation of support for the mujaheddin against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by 636blurr

One thing to remember user, is iM not sure if you realize it, but you have changed since your encounter with the window of an SUV, you used to be full of alot of fun but you have been far more bitter latley, hell, your starting to sound more like me

I'm not sure I'd link it to my accident, I'm the same lovable guy I always was I'd say it has more to do with A. the proximity to the election, so my interests and participation in political discussions is greater now than it was before, and B. the types of personalities I'm engaging. I can argue with you and keep things pretty civil because you can discuss a topic without resorting to simplistic and ignorant tactics (most of the time ).

Originally Posted by 636blurr

Serious man, you have changed, now Imagine if someone had grabbed you by the back of your head and shoved it thru that window, that changes a person even more, Cdantc is right, every one of our life experiences changes us, nobody can ever understand what its like to be in another persons shoe's

I agree completely, no question. Much of my personality and positions are a direct result of the losses, and pending losses, of several of my family members. Life is far too short and far too fragile to freely put it in the hands of unscrupulous, greedy and self serving politicians. If the security of the foundations of this country were truly threatened, that's one thing. If we're just cleaning up the mess caused by the shortsightedness of our policies, sorry, I'm not risking my life for that and I don't feel the need to support those who do.

But this is all beside the point. Again, I stand by my statement that what soldiers go through has ZERO to do with an analysis of the policies that put them there, and those that led to the need for them to be put there. To use the plight of the soldiers to quash criticism of policies is exactly the self-justifying line of reasoning that prolongs war.

Originally Posted by 636blurr

Just again, remember, we are all in this together.

I agree. I just wish there was more consideration given to understanding why things are the way they are and less machismo of soldiers "dong harm on my behalf". Perhaps then we could all get out of this mess together.

[636blurr]

^^^ I cant argue with any of that except yes I do believe the democrats have tried to undermine the war.

everything else was spot on and why I enjoy debating with you.