CIA Tactics Endorsed in Secret Memos

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by ctandc

... So you are telling me, that it would not be worth it to get the information from the prisoner, regardless of methods?

So 2 weeks later when 5 aircraft went down and 1000 civilians were killed, you could look at the loved ones of those people killed and tell them "I'm sorry, but we couldn't lower ourselves to the standards of the terrorists to get the info to prevent the attacks. The ends do not justify the means."

If you could...well..you're either a liar, delusional, or you just say you would because you've never had to make that decision. ...

Seeing as this has already been well addressed by the fact (brought up repeatedly already) that torture does not result in *reliable* information, and thus is ineffective as well as immoral and unethical, yes, I'd say it wouldn't be worth it.

As Parabellum said:

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Bottom line: If we endorse torture, we are no better than our enemies.

I don't want to hear any more shit about "its necessary to protect Americans".

Bullshit...its widely known that information extracted through torture is highly unreliable....so not only is it a poor tool, it lowers us to their level.

I will NOT endorse a breech of ethics for security...that is the road to hell.

I agree 100%.

PhilB

[Dakota Kid]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

My research confirms Dakota's assertion:

http://www.militarytimes.com/static/...003_ep_2pp.pdf

Thanks. Yet there are those here who have actually asserted with a straight fact that Obama has more military supporters than McCain. Amazing.

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Arguing that you can't make this decision unless you have been emotionally affected by it (actually seeing the carnage in front of you) is the definition of irrationality.

Irrational - to disregard or act against reason.

How is that irrational? I'm simply stating that a person's opinions / beliefs are shaped by their experiences. It's one thing to talk about this on an internet message board. It's another thing entirely to talk about it after a friend, a co-worker, a family member or even yourself, has been DIRECTLY affected by the actions of these extremists.

Originally Posted by Parabellum

CTanddc's post was nothing more than an appeal to emotion.

I don't get that one. But I guess if you are well insulated from these issues, then it would seem as an "appeal to emotion".

Originally Posted by Parabellum

I'm not an internet tough guy, just a guy who values reason and logic over emotion.

It's the internet..so I take it as such..but from the context of your post, it seems like you might be inferring that I am coming off as some sort of "internet tough guy". If that's the case, you are way off target. I served my country in the military for more than a few years. That was my choice alone. In some of the positions that I was put in, I experienced things that many people never will....let me rephrase..I , and the many people I served with, experienced things that I hope no other person has to experience. But regardless of that fact, EVERYTHING that happens in your life, helps to shape the person you become. That's a simple fact.

Originally Posted by Parabellum

EDIT: And we do this all the time. The US has a strict NO NEGOTIATION policy on kidnapping and ransom demands. We do tell the families of kidnapped citizens that we will NOT negotiate a release. Usually the people telling the families that are members of the military, or former military members now working for the government....so please do not try to sell me the "if you had been there you wouldn't be able to do the same" argument. People could and would tell a family that lost a loved one that we will NOT resort to torture to obtain shaky information. I would do it if I was in that position, and I don't expect you to believe me, since you clearly place emotion > reason.

We made quite a jump here.

And since you "clearly" place reason over emotion, then please don't ASSUME that you would make certain decisions. How can you use "reason" to assume you'd make certain decisions in positions / environments that you have never been in? That's called an assumption. With no facts to back that assumption. NO ONE can predict how they will react to certain situations. And you may call it "emotion" but decisions made by human beings in stressful situations are influenced by "emotion". It's what makes us human in the first place.

[Parabellum]

It's the internet..so I take it as such..but from the context of your post, it seems like you might be inferring that I am coming off as some sort of "internet tough guy". If that's the case, you are way off target.

I wasn't saying you were like that, I was just touching on an earlier comment.

And to be specific: It is precisely the ability for humans to suppress emotion in favor of reason that makes us human....NOT the other way around. If you don't suppress emotions in favor of reason, you are no different than an animal reacting on instinct.

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by Gaolee

As a person who opposed the Iraq invasion from the outset, I have seen far worse and far worse recently. Obama supporters who post online don't hold a candle to the fascist pricks who threatened me and my family when we didn't toe the line in 2002. Sorry, but YOU FAIL!

I'm curious. What position do you hold that would have subjected you to threats from "fascist pricks"?

Or did you visibly protest the war? If so, that's your right to do that...and PHYSICAL THREATS against you or your family are CRIMINAL ACTS, and not excusable. And how did your "family" not "toe the line"?

I'm curious how it applies here? Because it obviously has had an effect on you.

Originally Posted by Gaolee

As far as the military supporting Obama, they tend to vote Republican. The military is the most conservative organization in the country. The military, any military, is a conservative, heirarchical organization by nature, and necessarily so. As a result, people who gravitate toward the military will also gravitate to a heirarchical political party like the Republicans. It doesn't bother me one way or another, it just is.

Okay..I can see your reasoning there. But doesn't it seem like that a person responsible for ultimately being in control of that "conservative organization" at least understand the views of that organization?

It is funny you mention that the military is a "conservative" organization. By the nature of your posts, I would assume (again I could be wrong) that you do NOT consider yourself "conservative"...is this correct?

So basically your description of the military as a whole, describes and organization that is a NECESSARY part of this country. Something that we have to maintain to be an independent nation, but the members of that organization, who are all VOLUNTEER, happen to be a "conservative" organization in your opinion?

Isn't it strange how "conservatives" are painted as bad for this country, but yet...when blood has to be shed for this country, it seems to be the predominant nature of that organization (by your own words) is "conservative".

Funny..not a whole lot of "non-conservatives" willing to put their life on the line for the country that creates the politics they so hotly debate...

Originally Posted by Gaolee

And, if presidential elections were more than a dumbass popularity contest, dumb'ya would have stayed in Texas where he couldn't have done near the damage he has done. McCain would have been the Republican nominee in 2000.

You are probably correct. Again..tread very lightly where you "assume" that because someone doesn't agree with your candidate / position, that they automatically support the opposite. Just because someone doesn't agree with Obama's beliefs, and doesn't want to vote for him, doesn't automatically make him / her a Bush or McCain fan.


One of my favorite quotes from my time in the service...

"Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups..."

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

I wasn't saying you were like that, I was just touching on an earlier comment.

And to be specific: It is precisely the ability for humans to suppress emotion in favor of reason that makes us human....NOT the other way around. If you don't suppress emotions in favor of reason, you are no different than an animal reacting on instinct.

To a POINT I will agree. But nothing is cut and dried. If humans TOTALLY suppressed emotion in favor of "reason" they would not be human..

[Parabellum]

I agree. I am actually a very emotional person, but I try not to let it cloud my judgement.

Try is the operative word.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by ctandc

How is that irrational? I'm simply stating that a person's opinions / beliefs are shaped by their experiences. It's one thing to talk about this on an internet message board. It's another thing entirely to talk about it after a friend, a co-worker, a family member or even yourself, has been DIRECTLY affected by the actions of these extremists.



I don't get that one. But I guess if you are well insulated from these issues, then it would seem as an "appeal to emotion".



It's the internet..so I take it as such..but from the context of your post, it seems like you might be inferring that I am coming off as some sort of "internet tough guy". If that's the case, you are way off target. I served my country in the military for more than a few years. That was my choice alone. In some of the positions that I was put in, I experienced things that many people never will....let me rephrase..I , and the many people I served with, experienced things that I hope no other person has to experience. But regardless of that fact, EVERYTHING that happens in your life, helps to shape the person you become. That's a simple fact.



We made quite a jump here.

And since you "clearly" place reason over emotion, then please don't ASSUME that you would make certain decisions. How can you use "reason" to assume you'd make certain decisions in positions / environments that you have never been in? That's called an assumption. With no facts to back that assumption. NO ONE can predict how they will react to certain situations. And you may call it "emotion" but decisions made by human beings in stressful situations are influenced by "emotion". It's what makes us human in the first place.

^^ good post

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

I wasn't saying you were like that, I was just touching on an earlier comment.

And to be specific: It is precisely the ability for humans to suppress emotion in favor of reason that makes us human....NOT the other way around. If you don't suppress emotions in favor of reason, you are no different than an animal reacting on instinct.

Yes becouse you have been so rational when dealing with me, making it your frothing goal to have me banned.

Truly pathetic, yet you have the nerve to question those in the line of fire?

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by User Name

You're inability to follow the sequential progression of this dialogue is becoming irritating. I was not the first to make references to tv/movies, you were.

My Inability? I mentioned in my first post in this thread that "life isn't a 2 hour movie. The bad guy doesn't give up and start talking so easy, and the good guy sometimes has to take off his white hat so he doesn't get blood on it."

Yes..I made the first mention of TV/Movie. And my meaning was that in the real world, things don't always end like most people think they should, and that there is always something more than meets the eye.

Then your response to my comment was :

"Oh please dude, you suggest life isn't a 2 hour movie and then concoct a scene right out of a Clint Eastwood movie. Turn off the 60 inch plasma TV, leave the comfort of your home theater and start thinking about what truly drives people to make the choices they make."

Where did my scene from a Clint Eastwood movie come in? And then you take a personal jab at me, "turn off the 60 inch plasma TV, leave the comfort of your home theater and start thinking about what truly drives people to make the choices they make "

And my response was to ask you if you had ever served in the military. Because if you haven't (and you haven't) then how in fuck's sake would you know PERSONALLY what the hell you are speaking of? You make a stupid ass sarcastic little comment about me, and then say I'm "deflecting" when I answer your barb?

You = EPIC FAIL.

Originally Posted by User Name

Irrelevant. I do not need to know what murdering someone is like for me to know that it's morally wrong. This is simply a tactic by which you attempt to quash criticism of the subject.

Irrelevant? You have never been faced with the decisions and circumstances that soldiers and investigators are faced with on a regular basis, but you certainly come off like you know what they go through. And you mention "murdering someone".... you sir are the epitomy of the self-serving little pricks all over this country and bad-mouth everything about this country every chance they get...from the comfort of your home, on the computer...after coming home from the job that lets you live a comfortable enough lifestyle to afford to post on message boards such as this.

And just like the others, you are the first to bitch and moan, and last (which means NEVER) to volunteer to fight for this country, or serve in it's Armed Forces. You have never been a solider, will never be a soldier, and so you making statements about how "soliders are no better than terrorists" is just pure f'n drivel.

And the fucked up part it is....as much as I think from your postings, that you are a useless piece of shit, I would gladly serve AGAIN, to protect your right to post your garbage. Because even through I don't AGREE with you...I agree with your RIGHT to give and publish your opinion. That's the difference between you and I.

Originally Posted by User Name

This is where your shortsightedness fails logic. WE are the ones who send autonomous missiles into other countries from a thousand miles away. When they happen to go astray and kill and/or maim innocent people, we say "oops". WE are the ones who support dictators who'll sell us cheap oil. When those dictators oppress, torture and murder their own people, we turn a blind eye. WE then criticize those people who live amidst oppression, chaos and war, partially because of US, when they use whatever means they can to fight us.

Lot of hate huh? You make this country and it's government sound so horrible....so why exactly do you stay here if it's so bad?

But I am confused..what "dicatator" do we "support" that sells us cheap oil? Oil was cheaper before we ousted Sadaam. Last time I checked we weren't real tight with Iran either...so who / where are you referring to?

Originally Posted by User Name

You can not disregard what the "enemy" has had to endure because of us in your criticism of the tactics they use against us.

Wow....well I guess it is happening. They are getting what they want. Since the STATED goal of jihad is for infidels (non-Muslims) is to CONVERT or DIE...that's the ONLY resolution according to the extremists...where do you stand?...or kneel as the case may be.

Originally Posted by User Name

So you concoct the most unlikely of scenarios where by one single person who, as luck would have it, the US manages to take into custody, holds the key to exactly what, where and when a terrorist attack will happen. And this is your justification for allowing a policy of torture by none other than the US government - an organization who has a stellar reputation for altruism

I asked you a question..and you didn't answer it. Typical. Wait a minute.. I know.. you're "deflecting".

Originally Posted by User Name

Listen to yourself man, I hate to keep bringing up a TV/movie connection, but your fantasy here is directly out of Hollywood's playbook.

I would love to live in the dreamworld you are obviously living in. Just because it's not posted on a website or listed on the news, it never happens...right?

Originally Posted by User Name

And people elsewhere in the world are killed in their sleep, where they work and where they play by these same rough men who stand by to mindlessly carry out the orders of incompetent politicians, which in turns creates generation after generation of hatred for Americans, and breads people who's only goal in life is to take the lives of Americans, there by making it impossible for Americans to sleep peaceably in their beds at night.

LOL...sorry, I am not a grammar Nazi..but the "breads" instead of "Breeds" was just a funny image....

And I'm confused...has your sleep been disturbed at night from the worry of terrorists attacking you?

Have you enlisted or volunteered for the military so you can help change this vicious cycle? Run for office? That would be a "no" I'm assuming...my bad, climb back on your soapbox...

Originally Posted by User Name

It's a vicious cycle caused by incompetence and supported by ignorance, and you are (or were) a part of it.

Now I'm "supporting ignorance". And I'm part of the vicious cycle. I'm sorry I must have missed your plan on fixing all of this in the midst of your bashing...oops that's right..there wasn't one.

Do you REALLY think that if we just "left everyone alone" they'd stop? Newsflash...they won't. But since you KNOW everything is so wrong and everyone is so "ignorant" then by all means share your knowledge and experience with those in power. I'm sure they are open to suggestions.

Originally Posted by User Name

You inject yourself into the middle of a problem that has existed for decades, and you're either willfully ignorant of, or actively refuse to acknowledge, that your participation creates the very conditions which then necessitates your actions. Since you create the hatred you fight, you accomplish nothing.

LOL......That's kind of like which came first...the chicken or the egg?

But do me a favor there buddy...name those SPECIFIC events that justified the 9/11 attacks. And please list what started it all, and what was the cause? I'm sure we'd all like to know.

Originally Posted by User Name

So yea, thanks for nothing.

Your welcome. It's not a problem...because if the security of this country was left to people such as yourself, we'd have been speaking German (East Coast) and Japanese (West Coast) a long time ago. It's okay...you keep cussing and typing, sipping your wine, drinking your latte....and bitching about your portfolio going down. There will always be some "ignorant" person there to volunteer to serve on your behalf.

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by PhilB

Seeing as this has already been well addressed by the fact (brought up repeatedly already) that torture does not result in *reliable* information, and thus is ineffective as well as immoral and unethical, yes, I'd say it wouldn't be worth it.

As Parabellum said:
I agree 100%.

PhilB

I'm sorry..I must have missed those experienced people who posted evidence that RELIABLE information is not gotten in "torture" cases.

[Parabellum]

Originally Posted by ctandc

I'm sorry..I must have missed those experienced people who posted evidence that RELIABLE information is not gotten in "torture" cases.

Sure, here is a plethora of it:

According to the U.S. Army's own field manual on interrogation, published in September 2006, torture “is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the [human intelligence] collector wants to hear." As veteran FBI interrogator Joe Navarro put it, "the only thing torture guarantees you is pain.”

Eight Lessons of Torture

Tainted by torture. - By Phillip Carter - Slate Magazine

Pensito Review » Book Review: American Torture — Harvesting the ‘Fruits of Information’

As Otterman points out, torture is the worst way to try to extract information (see interview with the author below). Indeed, he lauds the FBI’s use of nonviolent rapport-building tactics as yielding 1) more useful information, and 2) yielding information that will stand up in a court of law because it was not extracted via violations of a subject’s human rights. That’s why George Bush cannot allow Guantanamo detainees to go to trial — they’ve been tortured and their admissions of guilt, like their proclamations of innocence, were extracted under duress.

Human Rights First | Primetime Torture | Why Torture Makes Us Less Safe

[ctandc]

Originally Posted by Parabellum

Sure, here is a plethora of it:



Eight Lessons of Torture

Tainted by torture. - By Phillip Carter - Slate Magazine

Pensito Review » Book Review: American Torture — Harvesting the ‘Fruits of Information’



Human Rights First | Primetime Torture | Why Torture Makes Us Less Safe

All very reputable sources.

And of course there is no one to refute those opinions, since any evidence of good intelligence couldn't be shared. And those getting that information wouldn't talk about it because it might endanger ongoing operations.

I'd like to see the definition of torture as well.

Obviously people think I'm in full support of torturing people for information. Not at all.

Good interrogators can get the majority of information without inflicting physical pain...the only prisoners I "assumed" (my fuck up for assuming) that everyone was thinking that way I Was....that you've got a prisoner who isn't telling you anything at all..but you have evidence to support that he / she has intelligence that could help..they just won't share it. Some are true fanatics....and most can be successfully interrogated without physical abuse...but there is mental torture as well.

[Dakota Kid]

Originally Posted by ctandc

My Inability? I mentioned in my first post in this thread that "life isn't a 2 hour movie. The bad guy doesn't give up and start talking so easy, and the good guy sometimes has to take off his white hat so he doesn't get blood on it."

Yes..I made the first mention of TV/Movie. And my meaning was that in the real world, things don't always end like most people think they should, and that there is always something more than meets the eye.

Then your response to my comment was :

"Oh please dude, you suggest life isn't a 2 hour movie and then concoct a scene right out of a Clint Eastwood movie. Turn off the 60 inch plasma TV, leave the comfort of your home theater and start thinking about what truly drives people to make the choices they make."

Where did my scene from a Clint Eastwood movie come in? And then you take a personal jab at me, "turn off the 60 inch plasma TV, leave the comfort of your home theater and start thinking about what truly drives people to make the choices they make "

And my response was to ask you if you had ever served in the military. Because if you haven't (and you haven't) then how in fuck's sake would you know PERSONALLY what the hell you are speaking of? You make a stupid ass sarcastic little comment about me, and then say I'm "deflecting" when I answer your barb?

You = EPIC FAIL.






Irrelevant? You have never been faced with the decisions and circumstances that soldiers and investigators are faced with on a regular basis, but you certainly come off like you know what they go through. And you mention "murdering someone".... you sir are the epitomy of the self-serving little pricks all over this country and bad-mouth everything about this country every chance they get...from the comfort of your home, on the computer...after coming home from the job that lets you live a comfortable enough lifestyle to afford to post on message boards such as this.

And just like the others, you are the first to bitch and moan, and last (which means NEVER) to volunteer to fight for this country, or serve in it's Armed Forces. You have never been a solider, will never be a soldier, and so you making statements about how "soliders are no better than terrorists" is just pure f'n drivel.

And the fucked up part it is....as much as I think from your postings, that you are a useless piece of shit, I would gladly serve AGAIN, to protect your right to post your garbage. Because even through I don't AGREE with you...I agree with your RIGHT to give and publish your opinion. That's the difference between you and I.





Lot of hate huh? You make this country and it's government sound so horrible....so why exactly do you stay here if it's so bad?

But I am confused..what "dicatator" do we "support" that sells us cheap oil? Oil was cheaper before we ousted Sadaam. Last time I checked we weren't real tight with Iran either...so who / where are you referring to?






Wow....well I guess it is happening. They are getting what they want. Since the STATED goal of jihad is for infidels (non-Muslims) is to CONVERT or DIE...that's the ONLY resolution according to the extremists...where do you stand?...or kneel as the case may be.






I asked you a question..and you didn't answer it. Typical. Wait a minute.. I know.. you're "deflecting".



I would love to live in the dreamworld you are obviously living in. Just because it's not posted on a website or listed on the news, it never happens...right?





LOL...sorry, I am not a grammar Nazi..but the "breads" instead of "Breeds" was just a funny image....

And I'm confused...has your sleep been disturbed at night from the worry of terrorists attacking you?

Have you enlisted or volunteered for the military so you can help change this vicious cycle? Run for office? That would be a "no" I'm assuming...my bad, climb back on your soapbox...



Now I'm "supporting ignorance". And I'm part of the vicious cycle. I'm sorry I must have missed your plan on fixing all of this in the midst of your bashing...oops that's right..there wasn't one.

Do you REALLY think that if we just "left everyone alone" they'd stop? Newsflash...they won't. But since you KNOW everything is so wrong and everyone is so "ignorant" then by all means share your knowledge and experience with those in power. I'm sure they are open to suggestions.



LOL......That's kind of like which came first...the chicken or the egg?

But do me a favor there buddy...name those SPECIFIC events that justified the 9/11 attacks. And please list what started it all, and what was the cause? I'm sure we'd all like to know.



Your welcome. It's not a problem...because if the security of this country was left to people such as yourself, we'd have been speaking German (East Coast) and Japanese (West Coast) a long time ago. It's okay...you keep cussing and typing, sipping your wine, drinking your latte....and bitching about your portfolio going down. There will always be some "ignorant" person there to volunteer to serve on your behalf.

BEST post I have read here all week. Kudos to you, sir!

[User Name]

Originally Posted by ctandc

You = EPIC FAIL.

Ouch, that hurt...

Originally Posted by ctandc

Irrelevant? You have never been faced with the decisions and circumstances that soldiers and investigators are faced with on a regular basis, but you certainly come off like you know what they go through.

Exactly where did I "come across like I know what they go through"? Again, you use this utter bull shit line of reasoning to quash discussion of the subject.

My point was that a result of our actions is the significant injury and loss of life amongst innocent civilians in the countries we fight and this, in turn, breeds the exact mistrust and hatred we fight. This has exactly ZERO to do with what soldiers go through, it's an analysis of policies and their unintended and undesirable results.

I can only assume you're continual diversion into the daily lives of soldiers and contention that only soldiers are qualified to participate in that discussion is because you'd prefer to remain willfully ignorant to the fact that, as your actions create exactly what you fight, your service is, at best, utterly worthless and, at worse, self defeating in the larger analysis of foreign policy.

Originally Posted by ctandc

you sir are the epitomy of the self-serving little pricks all over this country and bad-mouth everything about this country every chance they get...

And you, sir, are the epitome of the ignorant fucking thug who serves the corruption and shortsightedness that puts everyone in danger, and then has the gall to heap praise upon yourself for such service.

Originally Posted by ctandc

You have never been a solider, will never be a soldier, and so you making statements about how "soliders are no better than terrorists" is just pure f'n drivel.

You continue to miss the point entirely, and sadly, everyone looses as a result.

Originally Posted by ctandc

And the fucked up part it is....as much as I think from your postings, that you are a useless piece of shit, I would gladly serve AGAIN, to protect your right to post your garbage. Because even through I don't AGREE with you...I agree with your RIGHT to give and publish your opinion. That's the difference between you and I.

And exactly where have I suggested you don't have the right to voice your opinion?

Originally Posted by ctandc

But do me a favor there buddy...name those SPECIFIC events that justified the 9/11 attacks. And please list what started it all, and what was the cause? I'm sure we'd all like to know.

Ok, here you go:

On July 4, 1776, the United States signed the Declaration of Independence, creating a country who guaranteed it's citizens the right to freedom of religion, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The evil terrorist have hated freedom and anyone who possess it since the dawn of time, and therefore attacked us on 9/11/01.

Originally Posted by ctandc

Your welcome. It's not a problem...because if the security of this country was left to people such as yourself, we'd have been speaking German (East Coast) and Japanese (West Coast) a long time ago.

Ha!! I always have to laugh when the soldier of today has to liken whatever two bit, pissant dictator they fight to the entire military forces of some of the worlds most powerful countries to justify their service.

This may come as a shock, but Saddam, Bin Ladin, et. all are (were) not the German and Japanese military. They don't, and never did, possess any ability to cause any actual threat to our democracy, so don't insult me by suggesting you and your fellow soldiers today are fighting to defend the freedoms I enjoy.

Get real dude.