If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
My take is that your'e envious of those of us who are members of a community who can gather together to worship and praise our God. I have to wonder why you even care. Believe if you want or don't believe if you want. But it's none of your concern or business why we believe in what we do.
It becomes my concern when your religious based values infringe on my rights.
It becomes my concern when my local school board requires biblical notions of how the world began be taught in my kid's classroom.
It becomes my concern when my wife and I choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy for any one of a hundred reasons and Her doctor is forbidden to help her because some religious nutters decided that a blastocycst is entitled to personhood.
It becomes my concern when religious fanatics decide that my gay son or daughter is a 2nd class citizen, or is going to hell in a handbasket, or is put to death for his or her sexuality.
It becomes my concern as an American when religious nut cases like that lying sack of shit Pat Robertson and his fucked up followers call for nuking Venezuela.
You can believe whatever the heck you want. But if what you believe affects me in any way, brother, I'm concerned and it becomes my business.
It becomes my concern when your religious based values infringe on my rights.
It becomes my concern when my local school board requires biblical notions of how the world began be taught in my kid's classroom.
It becomes my concern when my wife and I choose to terminate an unwanted pregnancy for any one of a hundred reasons and Her doctor is forbidden to help her because some religious nutters decided that a blastocycst is entitled to personhood.
It becomes my concern when religious fanatics decide that my gay son or daughter is a 2nd class citizen, or is going to hell in a handbasket, or is put to death for his or her sexuality.
It becomes my concern as an American when religious nut cases like that lying sack of shit Pat Robertson and his fucked up followers call for nuking Venezuela.
You can believe whatever the heck you want. But if what you believe affects me in any way, brother, I'm concerned and it becomes my business.
You bet.
What the fuck are you talking about? How does this go along with what the OP asked? Way to add your typical BS to this discussion.
I would say curious more than envious. You'll attract more ants with sugar than vinegar. At least he cares enough to ask questions. Rather than getting defensive, praise him for asking questions and do your best to enlighten him. Is that not the conviction of being a follower of Christ?
You have a valid point, sort if. I don't believe the OP really cares one way or the other as long as he can write some erroneous info about church goers. Some on here, like Flylooper, has to bring up fanatics in this conversation. Fanatics make up such a small segment of the church going population yet some here like to grab this word and beat the shit out of it. It gets real old.
Last edited by YamahaFreak : 08-08-2008 at 09:18 AM.
What the fuck are you talking about? How does this go along with what the OP asked? Way to add your typical BS to this discussion.
fly was responding to suggestions that the non-religious are somehow envious of the religious. The reason that atheists and agnostics take issue with the values of the religious is that religious mythology quickly affects the reality of the non-religious.
He was simply noting a few ways in which that happens.
Hey remember how this thread was nice and civil in the beginning? Well we've descended to our usual level.
I sure had no problem with it until someone started saying that his religious beliefs are none of my "concern or business."
On one level it's true. I don't care if he belongs to the Church of the Eight Day Week.
On another, far more important level, his (and others') beliefs have certainly affected me, especially in the last 8 years, with all these Christo-Fascists running around Washington DC calling for flag burning amendments, repeal of Roe, and placing the Ten Commandments in courtrooms and public squares and my kids' classrooms.
That's when it becomes a problem. All religion should be left at home.
It's a belief system that gives people hope. A hope that they can better themselves and be of usefulness to being much greater than themselves and therefore be more useful to society.
We all have to believe in something if we have hope. Scientists believe that they can achieve a certain goal through many hours of research. That belief give scientists hope when they reach a stumbling point. Hope gives them the willpower move beyond that point. Willpower and perseverance will eventually yield results.
Christians believe that all sin and through the grace of God and only through the grace of God, can we be absolved of all our sins. Rather than question their belief system in hope to make them stumble, let us show respect and humility and encourage them to be the best person they can be. No one likes to be ridiculed for what they believe in.
First, I haven't said anything with the intent being ridicule, if it seemed that way I apologize. I know this is a topic that can very easily degrade into an argument and I'll will do my best to not participate in that.
Regarding the issue of hope, hope is great. Insofar as religion fosters a sense of community, hope and goodwill, I think it's great. Honestly. I attended a Lutheran church session in the Bahamas a few months ago (one of the people I went there with was a minister), and I was truly moved by the sense of community, and how warmly we were welcomed into it (four pale white guys kinda stand out in a church full of Bahamians ) That part of religion, I have nothing but respect and admiration for.
But... in religion (Christian based at least) fear precedes hope - it says that, from the very moment of birth, I have sinned and will be cast to hell for those sins, and only through acceptance of Jesus Christ lies the hope for forgiveness (and eternal life, yada, yada, yada...).
It is manipulation at it's finest:
Step 1 - convince people that they've done something they can't defend against.
Step 2 - threaten their everlasting soul with an eternity in hell as punishment.
Step 3 - give them a single avenue for avoiding that horrific fate, which just so happens to be through a devotion to them.
I'm sorry, but I simply have a hard time not viewing a belief system based on fear and manipulation without some skepticism, and here's why: the very argument is framed in such a way as to prevent my ability to be honest - if I believe in Jesus Christ, am I doing it because I truly accept him for who/what/whatever he is claimed to be, or am I doing it for the obviously self-serving reason of saving my soul from damnation? I honestly couldn't say. And that, again, leads to guilt and fear, which are both key to manipulation.
First, I haven't said anything with the intent being ridicule, if it seemed that way I apologize. I know this is a topic that can very easily degrade into an argument and I'll will do my best to not participate in that.
Regarding the issue of hope, hope is great. Insofar as religion fosters a sense of community, hope and goodwill, I think it's great. Honestly. I attended a Lutheran church session in the Bahamas a few months ago (one of the people I went there with was a minister), and I was truly moved by the sense of community, and how warmly we were welcomed into it (four pale white guys kinda stand out in a church full of Bahamians ) That part of religion, I have nothing but respect and admiration for.
But... in religion (Christian based at least) fear precedes hope - it says that, from the very moment of birth, I have sinned and will be cast to hell for those sins, and only through acceptance of Jesus Christ lies the hope for forgiveness (and eternal life, yada, yada, yada...).
It is manipulation at it's finest:
Step 1 - convince people that they've done something they can't defend against.
Step 2 - threaten their everlasting soul with an eternity in hell as punishment.
Step 3 - give them a single avenue for avoiding that horrific fate, which just so happens to be through a devotion to them.
I'm sorry, but I simply have a hard time not viewing a belief system based on fear and manipulation without some skepticism, and here's why: the very argument is framed in such a way as to prevent my ability to be honest - if I believe in Jesus Christ, am I doing it because I truly accept him for who/what/whatever he is claimed to be, or am I doing it for the obviously self-serving reason of saving my soul from damnation? I honestly couldn't say. And that, again, leads to guilt and fear, which are both key to manipulation.
Plus One! Excellent post. Which is why I'm at least a nominal Unitarian.
I've been doing some reading about buddhism, which seems like an excellent philosophy that doesn't push a lot of mythology on you. Interesting stuff, and not inconsistent with anyone's theological beliefs. One can be fully buddhist AND christian. In fact, some reading I have done suggests that Jesus is considered a Buddha by many buddhists.
I've been doing some reading about buddhism, which seems like an excellent philosophy that doesn't push a lot of mythology on you. Interesting stuff, and not inconsistent with anyone's theological beliefs. One can be fully buddhist AND christian. In fact, some reading I have done suggests that Jesus is considered a Buddha by many buddhists.
I've read the same thing. I formally looked into Buddhism, too, but I found the group I hung out with to be a little to smug for my tastes. I think Unitarianism, which loosely is a do-your-own-thing social club based on immutable notions of good and evil, was the way to go. My congregation is not religious at all, in the traditional sense. Totally humanist in outlook. It's kind of cool because I can hang on to my Catholic cultural background at the same time.
I sure had no problem with it until someone started saying that his religious beliefs are none of my "concern or business."
On one level it's true. I don't care if he belongs to the Church of the Eight Day Week.
On another, far more important level, his (and others') beliefs have certainly affected me, especially in the last 8 years, with all these Christo-Fascists running around Washington DC calling for flag burning amendments, repeal of Roe, and placing the Ten Commandments in courtrooms and public squares and my kids' classrooms.
That's when it becomes a problem. All religion should be left at home.
Well to a certain extent you're going to have to accept that religion will be pushed in this country. This country was founded on those Christian principles by our founding fathers. But because this country is the way it is, we also cannot force the religion on others. I'm sure there's a healthy inbetween although it would be hard to pick out.
Actually, most of the Founding fathers, while Christian, were Deists, and had all sorts of arcane notions. Furthermore, 'forcing belief on others' would be absolutely anathema to the Founding Fathers anyway.
__________________
The rat always knows when he's in with weasels. Here you lose a little every day.
I remember when a million was a million. They all have ways to make you pay.
~ Tom Waits
Thank god I'm not cool, I can do anything I want ~ Fourstring Gewsleesta
First, I haven't said anything with the intent being ridicule, if it seemed that way I apologize. I know this is a topic that can very easily degrade into an argument and I'll will do my best to not participate in that.
Regarding the issue of hope, hope is great. Insofar as religion fosters a sense of community, hope and goodwill, I think it's great. Honestly. I attended a Lutheran church session in the Bahamas a few months ago (one of the people I went there with was a minister), and I was truly moved by the sense of community, and how warmly we were welcomed into it (four pale white guys kinda stand out in a church full of Bahamians ) That part of religion, I have nothing but respect and admiration for.
But... in religion (Christian based at least) fear precedes hope - it says that, from the very moment of birth, I have sinned and will be cast to hell for those sins, and only through acceptance of Jesus Christ lies the hope for forgiveness (and eternal life, yada, yada, yada...).
It is manipulation at it's finest:
Step 1 - convince people that they've done something they can't defend against.
Step 2 - threaten their everlasting soul with an eternity in hell as punishment.
Step 3 - give them a single avenue for avoiding that horrific fate, which just so happens to be through a devotion to them.
I'm sorry, but I simply have a hard time not viewing a belief system based on fear and manipulation without some skepticism, and here's why: the very argument is framed in such a way as to prevent my ability to be honest - if I believe in Jesus Christ, am I doing it because I truly accept him for who/what/whatever he is claimed to be, or am I doing it for the obviously self-serving reason of saving my soul from damnation? I honestly couldn't say. And that, again, leads to guilt and fear, which are both key to manipulation.
I understand where you are coming from. It's also the one of the few reasons why I'm not Christian. It is, however, their belief. I may not agree with it but I respect it.
FUD is very useful PR tool. In some way, religion and science uses it to further their cause. A promise of certain elevated condition with rules and restrictions involved. Living by these rules will "guarantee" that you will reach this elevated state. Ignore it and you suffer a horrible consequence.
If Christianity is at fault for spreading FUD, we must hold everything else at fault. I cannot speak for anyone else but I know I certainly don't want to go around carrying that feeling inside. I'll get old real quick.
I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm just saying that we are manipulated every day whether we realize it or not. At least Christians are forthcoming with theirs. Wouldn't it be better if we
) That part of religion, I have nothing but respect and admiration for. 
