Can some one explain organized worship?

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by poulsen

I think you're spot on with that one. I've often heard that a person needs to confess that Christ is the Savior but it only means something if it is absolutely sincere and with the right intent.

Think of the story in Acts 8: 18-23 where Simon wants to buy the Priesthood. That was a righteous desire but the way he went about it was all wrong and he was chastised. I think the same thing applies here: it's a righteous desire to want to be saved but if you pass up countless opportunites along life's road only to "covert" at the last possible second, well I have to think there's a better way. You'd still have to look at it case by case though.

The parable of the workers in the field in Matthew 20:1-16 addresses this situation directly. All who come to Christ receive the gift of salvation. It does not matter what hour of your life you come to know Him.

The thing about Christ is He knows your heart. Nobody is going to "fool" God with an insincere conversion, whether it be deathbed of not.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by EEfz6

My take on that is this: all that is required to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and accept the salvation that is freely offered.

But that doesn't make a wit of logical sense. How does someone die for something someone who won't be born for 3000 years may or may not do? Why does nothing else we observe in the entire universe operate in such opposition to the logical flow from cause to effect?

The entire argument is designed to pray on people's fear of the unknown (what happens after death) and coerce them into servitude by convincing them that they are somehow guilty of sin from the very moment of birth and that only religion/the church can resolve them of that sin. It's blatant, obvious manipulation at it's finest.

[county]

Originally Posted by Trash

Of course no dogs, but don't get me started.

Well why the fcuk not?

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by User Name

But that doesn't make a wit of logical sense. How does someone die for something someone who won't be born for 3000 years may or may not do?

It's not about what one may or may not do. Christian theology asserts that man is fundamentally broken. The entire point isn't that you aren't broken any more, but that you can reconcile that brokenness with God.

I'll argue that people born 3000 years ago were fundamentally screwed up, just as they are now, and just as they will be 3000 years hence.

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by Trash

So what do you think the rewards in Heaven would be like? This isn't a smartass question, it's just when you said "not everyone will be rewarded equally" it got me thinking.

I thought it was everybody flying around sitting on clouds playing the harp.

Of course no dogs, but don't get me started.

To be honest, this question is theologically over my head. I would have to study more to accurately answer. However, there are verses that point to Christian's being rewarded according to our works. For instance

Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.


The bible also talks of five different crowns that will be awarded according to works:

1. The Crown of Righteousness
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." (2 Timothy 4:7-8)

2. The Incorruptible Crown
"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things.

Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an IMPERISHABLE CROWN. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (1 Corinthians 9:24-27)

3. The Crown of Life
"Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the CROWN OF LIFE." (Revelation 2:10)

4. The Crown of Rejoicing
"For what is our hope, or joy, or CROWN OF REJOICING? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20)

5. The Crown of Glory


"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed.

SHEPHERD THE FLOCK OF GOD which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the CROWN OF GLORY that does not fade away." (1 Peter 5:1-4)

[poulsen]

Originally Posted by EEfz6

The parable of the workers in the field in Matthew 20:1-16 addresses this situation directly. All who come to Christ receive the gift of salvation. It does not matter what hour of your life you come to know Him.

The thing about Christ is He knows your heart. Nobody is going to "fool" God with an insincere conversion, whether it be deathbed of not.

That parable might go towards justifying the sincere ones but likely more often than not people put off converting until their deathbed specifically to lead a more simple and selfish life. Which might explain verse 16 in that parable where Jesus says "many are called and few are chosen."

We often talk of "turning your life over to Christ" or "living each day for Christ". If people have a chance and an inclination to do so before it's their time to check out I think they need to.

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by User Name

But that doesn't make a wit of logical sense. How does someone die for something someone who won't be born for 3000 years may or may not do? Why does nothing else we observe in the entire universe operate in such opposition to the logical flow from cause to effect?

The entire argument is designed to pray on people's fear of the unknown (what happens after death) and coerce them into servitude by convincing them that they are somehow guilty of sin from the very moment of birth and that only religion/the church can resolve them of that sin. It's blatant, obvious manipulation at it's finest.

You are an atheist, I am a Christian. We have different paradigms, and neither of us will convince the other of anything without concrete proof either way. The problem is that there is no concrete proof either way. So believe as you wish. We live in a country where that is an option, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by poulsen

That parable might go towards justifying the sincere ones but likely more often than not people put off converting until their deathbed specifically to lead a more simple and selfish life. Which might explain verse 16 in that parable where Jesus says "many are called and few are chosen."

We often talk of "turning your life over to Christ" or "living each day for Christ". If people have a chance and an inclination to do so before it's their time to check out I think they need to.

I agree whole heartedly, but I think you overlooked the last part of my post which pertained to that.

Originally Posted by EEfz6

The thing about Christ is He knows your heart. Nobody is going to "fool" God with an insincere conversion, whether it be deathbed of not.

It is not for me to say who is sincere. That is between them and God. Likewise, at what point they come to God is between them and God. I would rather a person have a deathbed conversion, than no conversion at all.

Back to the works topic, I have heard it said before "Show me your faith without your works. I will show you my faith BY my works." Works can be evidence of faith. But it is the faith that gets you into Heaven. Not the works.

[poulsen]

Originally Posted by User Name

But that doesn't make a wit of logical sense. How does someone die for something someone who won't be born for 3000 years may or may not do?

I think the only answer there would be that God knows the end from the begining and vice versa. I realize that isn't one you'd accept but as EEfz6 said, we're in a bit of a stand still. That answer works well enough to convince some and others, obviously not. It's all good though.

[poulsen]

Originally Posted by EEfz6

I agree whole heartedly, but I think you overlooked the last part of my post which pertained to that.

Oh I totally saw it and I understand. My arguement on deathbed conversion is simply that more often than not people are probably not incredibly sincere. Fearful might be a better word.

No one can fool God and those who are truly sincere usually convert sometime before they're dying and suddenly start thinking they need a God.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

It's not about what one may or may not do. Christian theology asserts that man is fundamentally broken. The entire point isn't that you aren't broken any more, but that you can reconcile that brokenness with God.

In other words, the entire point of Christian theology is to convince people that nothing they can do can resolve themselves of sins they didn't personally commit, yet are nonetheless guilty of, and will suffer eternal damnation for unless they profess loyalty to a deity who's existence is without a single shred of physical proof. That about sum it up? Can you honestly not see the manipulation here?

Let me ask, what happens to children who die during child birth? Do they all go straight to hell, since they never achieved the cognitive ability to profess their love, acceptance and devotion to god, yet were nonetheless guilty of sin?

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by poulsen

Oh I totally saw it and I understand. My arguement on deathbed conversion is simply that more often than not people are probably not incredibly sincere. Fearful might be a better word.

No one can fool God and those who are truly sincere usually convert sometime before they're dying and suddenly start thinking they need a God.

I really don't think that is a judgment that you or I are qualified to make.

Personally, I can't think of many things that would make me think about what happens next than knowing I am about to find out. I would think that would be a time when their heart would be very open to God.

[EEfz6]

Originally Posted by User Name

In other words, the entire point of Christian theology is to convince people that nothing they can do can resolve themselves of sins they didn't personally commit, yet are nonetheless guilty of, and will suffer eternal damnation for unless they profess loyalty to a deity who's existence is without a single shred of physical proof. That about sum it up? Can you honestly not see the manipulation here?

Who said it was sins that they didn't personally commit. Christians believe that all sin.

Originally Posted by User Name

Let me ask, what happens to children who die during child birth? Do they all go straight to hell, since they never achieved the cognitive ability to profess their love, acceptance and devotion to god, yet were nonetheless guilty of sin?

As to this, Christians believe that until a child is old enough (called the age of accountability) that they will be accepted into heaven if they die, as they do not understand sin or the consequences thereof. It is when they reach an actual understanding that they will be held accountable for choosing or not choosing Christ.

And before you ask, there is no set age. We believe that is an individual thing.