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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
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Not trying to change your mind or anything, but I would like to know if you have any scripture to back up a belief that works are required to get you into heaven. I believe more along the lines that faith is all that is required to get you to heaven. Works are generally a natural result of that faith.
I believe that a person who has faith first can accomplish great works because of their faith but I also think works factor in at least a little bit at judgment. I cited two scriptures on page three I believe of this post and I'll throw down another one that makes me feel that works hold at least some significance. (KJV) Revelation 20: 12-13 pretty clearly says that men are judged according to their works. Then again there are verses that say we are not judged according to works. This makes me think they are both necessary to some degree.
Heck, I would say that getting the faith necessary for salvation is work in and of itself. If someone doesn't work to get their faith, for example just lives off what their parents taught them, how strong is that faith? Strong faith comes through studying the Word and reflecting on one's life to see how the hand of God can be seen. In a sense, that's works.
Not trying to change your mind or anything, but I would like to know if you have any scripture to back up a belief that works are required to get you into heaven. I believe more along the lines that faith is all that is required to get you to heaven. Works are generally a natural result of that faith.
If works are required, what happens when there is a deathbed conversion? The person accepts Christ, but die before there is a chance for any works.
Well, Jesus' life would indicate that if one professes to be be Christian then one has an obligation to our fellow man. I'm not much on scripture but offa the top of my head you got the story of the Samaratan, the verse about treating one's neighbor as oneself etc etc. Then you got your Mother Teresa's who's faith is all about good works. I figure they know what's up.
As to deathbed conversions, I suppose they happen but I'd be skeptical of the sincerity given the circumstances.
I'm a little unsure of that "Heaven" stuff. However I do believe our lives here will be better if we consider others.
If Hell exists I imagine it to be a lot like Ikea on a Saturday afternoon. *shudder*
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The rat always knows when he's in with weasels. Here you lose a little every day.
I remember when a million was a million. They all have ways to make you pay.
~ Tom Waits
Thank god I'm not cool, I can do anything I want ~ Fourstring Gewsleesta
Hmm..Interesting responses. I’m glad I asked. Please keep em coming. Always found it interesting that people felt the need to go to church weekly especially when I heard a few people say I had to go to church to get into heaven.
I am more agnostic than any thing. Seems premature to profess things to be true when there is no confirmation either way.
I suppose Ill keep on looking for the truth. Oh and when I find out ill be sure to let the world know
You're touching on a favorite argument of most Theists - that there can be no morality without religion. I too go through life wondering if I'm doing the right things, but I do so expecting no reward at the end. Who's ultimately more righteous, the one who does the right thing so he/she can get into heaven and be rewarded with eternal life, or the one who does it simply because it's the right thing to do?
To listen to most Theists, they talk of their devotion as if it's a job - it's hard work done to "earn a paycheck" (metaphorically speaking) of acceptance into heaven. Well, when the "paycheck" is eternal life without fear or pain in a heavenly paradise, the "work" would seem pretty easy to justify. Not so much so if you're expecting nothing at all.
As for the claim of Atheists being "too smart" to believe in god and supposedly knowing how man was created, that's a limited, and not entirely accurate, portrayal. Speaking for myself, while I lean towards the theory of evolution, that doesn't even begin to explain the existence of life in general or the universe itself, and I will spend my entire life wondering and trying to discover how they came about. That, to me, is more work than simply accepting a spoon fed explanation and following a few basic rules.
On the subject of judgment day (which I know you didn't bring up), consider how much of life and the universe is completely unnecessary to achieve salvation according to the church. That being the case, why then does it exist in the unfathomable vastness and level of detail that it does? I would argue that it's impossible to truly appreciate the creation if you believe in a creator.
As an Atheist, because I do not believe in the existence of god, I spend each day looking for an answer to why we're here and where it may lead. If I should find evidence that, to my satisfaction, proves the existence of god, I'll happily revise my position. But if I should find myself being judged, having lived my entire life not believing in god, my only failing will be not having been intelligent enough to find him. And since I still chose to do the right things despite that disbelief, and without any expectation of reward, I'm confidant my one failing will be forgiven.
I believe that's a good mindset to have. Most atheists just throw the idea that there is a creator out the window altogether. Glad to hear that you allow yourself to have an open mind.
I have been examining my faith for the last several months and have changed my mindset myself. I admit that I had a little tunnel vision and needed to look beyond a couple of issues and consider other possible explanations. It's a little disturbing sometimes but we need to keep on searching for what is factual and true and not just stick to a single mindset.
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I believe that a person who has faith first can accomplish great works because of their faith but I also think works factor in at least a little bit at judgment. I cited two scriptures on page three I believe of this post and I'll throw down another one that makes me feel that works hold at least some significance. (KJV) Revelation 20: 12-13 pretty clearly says that men are judged according to their works. Then again there are verses that say we are not judged according to works. This makes me think they are both necessary to some degree.
Heck, I would say that getting the faith necessary for salvation is work in and of itself. If someone doesn't work to get their faith, for example just lives off what their parents taught them, how strong is that faith? Strong faith comes through studying the Word and reflecting on one's life to see how the hand of God can be seen. In a sense, that's works.
My take on that is this: all that is required to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and accept the salvation that is freely offered.
Now as far as works, not everyone will be rewarded equally in Heaven. Your works are judged to determine what rewards you receive in Heaven. But not used to determine if you go. In my view, this is the significance of works.
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doublEEsta
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As to deathbed conversions, I suppose they happen but I'd be skeptical of the sincerity given the circumstances.
I think you're spot on with that one. I've often heard that a person needs to confess that Christ is the Savior but it only means something if it is absolutely sincere and with the right intent.
Think of the story in Acts 8: 18-23 where Simon wants to buy the Priesthood. That was a righteous desire but the way he went about it was all wrong and he was chastised. I think the same thing applies here: it's a righteous desire to want to be saved but if you pass up countless opportunites along life's road only to "covert" at the last possible second, well I have to think there's a better way. You'd still have to look at it case by case though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EEfz6
My take on that is this: all that is required to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and accept the salvation that is freely offered.
Now as far as works, not everyone will be rewarded equally in Heaven. Your works are judged to determine what rewards you receive in Heaven. But not used to determine if you go. In my view, this is the significance of works.
So what do you think the rewards in Heaven would be like? This isn't a smartass question, it's just when you said "not everyone will be rewarded equally" it got me thinking.
I thought it was everybody flying around sitting on clouds playing the harp.
Well, Jesus' life would indicate that if one professes to be be Christian then one has an obligation to our fellow man. I'm not much on scripture but offa the top of my head you got the story of the Samaratan, the verse about treating one's neighbor as oneself etc etc. Then you got your Mother Teresa's who's faith is all about good works. I figure they know what's up.
I agree that if one professes to be a Christian, one has an obligation to our fellow man. I just see the works are a RESULT of the faith, not a requirement to get into Heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by county
As to deathbed conversions, I suppose they happen but I'd be skeptical of the sincerity given the circumstances.
I guess the best story I can think of to relate is the one of the thieves on the crosses next to Jesus. One repented. He never had a chance to do works. However, Jesus said that they would be together in Heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by county
I'm a little unsure of that "Heaven" stuff. However I do believe our lives here will be better if we consider others.
Fair enough. You are allowed to have your own beliefs.
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doublEEsta
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