Patriotism questioned

[RedlineTA]

Why is one's patriotism questioned when they point out the faults with this country and talk about improving it. If we are supposed to be a progressive nation and have continued success within and outside of this country, one can not remain on a static course.

So why is one less patriotic than the next when they question this country and point to outside examples?

[county]

Because the individual doing the questioning doesn't share your POV.

[Gaolee]

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Sheep are traitors.

[RedlineTA]

Originally Posted by county

Because the individual doing the questioning doesn't share your POV.

Seems like a cop out to win an argument. To me it seems as if the opposing side has run out of things to say or support their argument so they resort to the "Patriotism" argument.

Lie Gaolee stated.....sheep. And sheep get sheered and slaughtered. And that seems to be happening alot lately

[SXSMITH]

Originally Posted by Gaolee

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.

Thanks!

[flylooper]

Originally Posted by SXSMITH

Thanks!

Don't get so cocky. I'll add "informed" dissent as a modifier.

[SXSMITH]

Originally Posted by flylooper

Don't get so cocky. I'll add "informed" dissent as a modifier.

Doooohhhh!

[jim schmidt]

It's a particularly lame bullying tactic used by people of low intelligence.

[RedlineTA]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

It's a particularly lame bullying tactic used by people of low intelligence.

[PhilB]

It depends on the problems pointed out, the solutions proposed, and the outside examples pointed to.

The core of this country, the thing that makes it unique, is that it was expressly founded to secure the rights of the people. The protection and preservation of liberty and individual human rights is the reason for this country's existence. The DoI and Constitution were written to provide a framework for that purpose, and must be followed.

So, if the problems pointed out are violations of people's rights, and the solutions to them respect those rights and abide by the Constitution, and the outside examples are ones that do better at respecting people's rights, then patriotism is being done. Example: the War on Drugs violates the rights of a great many Americans in many ways; a better solution would be to legalize drugs and treat addiction as a medical problem; some European countries provide good examples. Ending the War on Drugs would be consistent with the Constitution.

OTOH, if the problems pointed out are not violations of people's rights, and/or the solutions proposed are themselves violations of people's rights and/or not consistent with our Constitution, and the outside examples are socialist or otherwise in opposition to people's rights, then patriotism is NOT being done, and questioning it is valid. Example: pretty much any socialized government top-down non-solution to any problem.

If one is working to improve this country by improving its respect for individual human rights and liberty, then one is being patriotic. If one is working to change this country into a copy of some other country that is more socialist and less individualist, then one is not.

PhilB

[RedlineTA]

Originally Posted by PhilB

It depends on the problems pointed out, the solutions proposed, and the outside examples pointed to.

The core of this country, the thing that makes it unique, is that it was expressly founded to secure the rights of the people. The protection and preservation of liberty and individual human rights is the reason for this country's existence. The DoI and Constitution were written to provide a framework for that purpose, and must be followed.

So, if the problems pointed out are violations of people's rights, and the solutions to them respect those rights and abide by the Constitution, and the outside examples are ones that do better at respecting people's rights, then patriotism is being done. Example: the War on Drugs violates the rights of a great many Americans in many ways; a better solution would be to legalize drugs and treat addiction as a medical problem; some European countries provide good examples. Ending the War on Drugs would be consistent with the Constitution.

OTOH, if the problems pointed out are not violations of people's rights, and/or the solutions proposed are themselves violations of people's rights and/or not consistent with our Constitution, and the outside examples are socialist or otherwise in opposition to people's rights, then patriotism is NOT being done, and questioning it is valid. Example: pretty much any socialized government top-down non-solution to any problem.

If one is working to improve this country by improving its respect for individual human rights and liberty, then one is being patriotic. If one is working to change this country into a copy of some other country that is more socialist and less individualist, then one is not.

PhilB

Due to the dynamic of this country we cant simply implement a copy of another system. And I dont think it is bad to experiment or take from examples of other systems. But like you said if it infringes on individual freedoms it isnt right. However, thats not when people claim patriotism. it is far sooner than that.

[ped]

drugs arent christian therefore being against the war on drugs is anti-american. whats so hard about that? you're thinking too much (which is also anti-american)

[county]

Originally Posted by RedlineTA

Seems like a cop out to win an argument. To me it seems as if the opposing side has run out of things to say or support their argument so they resort to the "Patriotism" argument.

Lie Gaolee stated.....sheep. And sheep get sheered and slaughtered. And that seems to be happening alot lately

Well, I didn't say you'd be happy with the answer.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally Posted by PhilB

It depends on the problems pointed out, the solutions proposed, and the outside examples pointed to.

"It depends"? Bullshit.

As others have have pointed out:

Originally Posted by Gaolee

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Sheep are traitors.

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

It's a particularly lame bullying tactic used by people of low intelligence.

There is no good excuse for using patriotism as a tool for self-righteous finger-pointing or degrading someone's character. Suppression of dissent for political gain is contrary to the very ideals this country was founded on.

It's akin to accusing a woman who won't go out with you of being a lesbian. It's like calling another guy gay because he prefers small tits.

(Ok, maybe the sexual references aren't the ideal examples, but ya'll get my drift.)

[gfarce]

Remember how "unpatriotic" John Kerry was for pointing out that crimes had been committed by some of our troops in Vietnam?

That BS argument ("we must show unity in a time of war, lest we strengthen the resolve of our enemy and subvert the mission") was completely abused and discredited during the Vietnam war.

The fact is, if we actually believe in the principles we espouse, it is not only patriotic, but our patriotic duty to object when we depart from those principles.

John McCain used to get this concept, you know, back in the halcyon days when he opposed torture.