Whoa! McCain was one of the Keating 5?! =80

[Mr. Whippy]

I had totally forgotten this little tidbit of history.

Now granted the investigation mostly cleared him, in this campaign where investment banks are going TU, this will be some serious dynamite for Obama come general election time.

[baldheadeddork]

The fucked up part is that The Repentant Sinner did the same damn thing ten years later for Paxson Communications. He took large donations and private jet use, and made inappropriate inquiries to regulators. Was it illegal? No, but neither was what he did for Charlie Keating. It was just blatant whoring of his office for donations and personal comfort.

So what lessons did McCain really learn about Keating?

[Gaolee]

Just enought to figure out how the Straight Talk Express is an excellent place for lobbyists to work using cell phones.

[dave b]

Well, at least he doesn't know any "controversial" preachers.

Oh.

He does, eh?

Never mind.

db

[gospeed81]

Holy Shit

I was eight at the time, and that was never mentioned in the second US history (barely went past vietnam). Thanks Whippy for the linky and education, now I'm definitely not voting McCandidate. People never change, and this guy is EXACTLY what we don't need now. Gee friggin whiz, the nerve.

After seeing what Enron did here, right as I was entering the job market, and seeing what just happened in the housing market (really need to sell my house right now to pay for two more years of school, so much for a great investment), I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for corruption or dishonesty (why Hillary never had my vote).

And to think the libertoons would trust all of our government functions to market driven coops and businesses.

[SAHTT]

The damn guys is almost 3,000 years old. If that's the only thing he's done wrong in all this time he's in pretty good shape.

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by gospeed81

Holy Shit

I was eight at the time, and that was never mentioned in the second US history (barely went past vietnam). Thanks Whippy for the linky and education, now I'm definitely not voting McCandidate. People never change, and this guy is EXACTLY what we don't need now. Gee friggin whiz, the nerve.

After seeing what Enron did here, right as I was entering the job market, and seeing what just happened in the housing market (really need to sell my house right now to pay for two more years of school, so much for a great investment), I have absolutely ZERO tolerance for corruption or dishonesty (why Hillary never had my vote).

And to think the libertoons would trust all of our government functions to market driven coops and businesses.

I agree about McCain. And you continue to completely misunderstand libertarianism. The last thing in the world that libertarianism is about is lack of accountability. We have no tolerance for corruption or dishonesty either, which is exactly why we think government should be minimized. And is also exactly why we think that (aside from defending the country) the only critical function of government is to hold people and businesses accountable for any harm or rights violations they do to other people. It must do that, and should do little else. It is absolutely NOT true that we would "trust all of our government functions to market driven coops and businesses". We're not anarchists; that's a lie perpetuated by people who oppose the idea of liberty.

I would urge you to actually learn something about the genuine practice and ideas of libertarianism. If you then still oppose it, at least you will be able to present an informed opposition.

PhilB

[Desp]

Originally Posted by PhilB

I would urge you to actually learn something about the genuine practice and ideas of libertarianism. If you then still oppose it, at least you will be able to present an informed opposition.

PhilB

But it's so much easy to speak out of ignorance to try and motivate ones agenda over another. If one was educated on the subject it would be harder to lie about it.

[Gaolee]

Actually, there is no basis for authority other than pure force. There is no moral foundation for it whatsoever. Anybody who tells you otherwise hasn't done enough thinking and research. So, anarchy is ultimately the purest state. Too bad humans are flawed and can't handle it.

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by PhilB

I agree about McCain. And you continue to completely misunderstand libertarianism. The last thing in the world that libertarianism is about is lack of accountability. We have no tolerance for corruption or dishonesty either, which is exactly why we think government should be minimized. And is also exactly why we think that (aside from defending the country) the only critical function of government is to hold people and businesses accountable for any harm or rights violations they do to other people. It must do that, and should do little else. It is absolutely NOT true that we would "trust all of our government functions to market driven coops and businesses". We're not anarchists; that's a lie perpetuated by people who oppose the idea of liberty.


PhilB

So if we vote libertoonian, we're going to get a police state?

Awesome!

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

So if we vote libertoonian, we're going to get a police state?

Awesome!

WTF? Care to explain where *that* came from?

PhilB

[Baldrick]

He's pokin' at ya with the Stick of Irony (tm)...

[gospeed81]

Originally Posted by PhilB

I agree about McCain. And you continue to completely misunderstand libertarianism. The last thing in the world that libertarianism is about is lack of accountability. We have no tolerance for corruption or dishonesty either, which is exactly why we think government should be minimized. And is also exactly why we think that (aside from defending the country) the only critical function of government is to hold people and businesses accountable for any harm or rights violations they do to other people. It must do that, and should do little else. It is absolutely NOT true that we would "trust all of our government functions to market driven coops and businesses". We're not anarchists; that's a lie perpetuated by people who oppose the idea of liberty.

I would urge you to actually learn something about the genuine practice and ideas of libertarianism. If you then still oppose it, at least you will be able to present an informed opposition.

PhilB

Didn't mean to offend you (again), I wasn't trying to say libertarians were going to be a corrupt bunch, simply commenting on the nature of free market. I agree gov should be the ultimate regulatory force for business. I have done research, and when I couldn't find something, I asked. There are tons of libertarians in College Station, and a few in Houston, most avid Ron Paul supporters. Most of what I present that you call my misunderstanding is actually the "lies perpetuated by people who oppse the idea of liberty," those that CALL themselves libertarians. I can read whatever I want on the intraweb that tells me how great the ideology is, but what really matters is how the people on the street walk it, and the libertoons around here are just that.

Originally Posted by Desp

But it's so much easy to speak out of ignorance to try and motivate ones agenda over another. If one was educated on the subject it would be harder to lie about it.

btw, for those unawares (STners already know), I WAS libertarian, and campaigned hardcore for Ron Paul. My "agenda" doesn't fit any party you turd, but if you actually read a few posts, you would probably find most of it agreeable. I thoroughly educated myself on the subject, almost to the point of fanaticism. I realized I was fanatical about change, but wasn't fanatical about such drastic change that undermines the past century of our nation. You may disagree with me on our welfare state, that's fine. I uphold the constitution, but I also value the views and efforts of the generations of americans that came before me. Ultimately it was not my "ignorance" that led me more towards the center and away from RP/Libertarianism, it was the "ignorants" I was out there holding signs with.

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by gospeed81

Ultimately it was not my "ignorance" that led me more towards the center and away from RP/Libertarianism, it was the "ignorants" I was out there holding signs with.

I believe this is a salient point about the unattractiveness (and maybe the attraction) of Libertarianism. I also think it had a lot to do with why Paul's money didn't translate into interest.

[Gaolee]

Right on, Tex. You should be considering a career in politics instead of whatever it is you are studying now. You got my vote.