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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
okay- the swiss were never armed so well as to even make Hitler blink. He invaded RUSSIA for fuck's sake.........
No- it was more likely that all the european leaders have left the Swiss alone because the Swiss have been complacent in laundering plundered loot. They are most famous for this in WWII, where alot of rare art and jewish belongings were found all over the Swiss banks.
Why invade someone that is happy to launder your stolen merchandise?
You are familiar with the Swiss version of national defense, no?
Yes, Swiss banking played a part. I'll give you that much.
But plans were drafted for a Swiss invasion by the Germans. It never took place. Swiss pilots shot down German planes that intercepted their airspace. Hitler ordered covert operations against Swiss airfields. From 1940 to 1944, Switzerland was virtually surrounded by Axis controlled countries, but a formal act of war was never declared.
Nothing to be gained by invading one of the most financially well-off countries in Europe at the time?
You're a funny guy!
The German Invasion of switzerland would have been the equivilent of our invasion Faluja, a few days and all over.
And the rest, solly said the best.
...
But why stop there? Canada has hidden behind the skirt of the US for decades- saving enough on defense to spend on public healthcare. Why not charge Canada, our biggest oil supplier, for decades of protecting them so they could have a miniscule military.
Gee, why does the world think the US is so arrogant? Maybe because of so many arrogant thoughts like this one!
Do you really think Canada could care less about the American military? Today, the US needs our oil. Mid 20th century, US was terrified that the big bad commie monsters would get closer to them through Canada. NORAD allowed the US to track the Soviets from a better position (within Canada).
None of these things have anything to do with Canada being dependent on the US military. It seems to me it's the US being dependent on Canada, or at least Canada's well being...
And we chose to spend $$ on having a universal health care system and other quality of life issues instead of on a super powerful military because we didn't and still don't have any intention of trying to antagonize the world with our idea of how things should be run or of playing world police. It has nothing to do with relying on the great American military machine.
And despite what you may think, you need us as much as we need you. (But your military, we don't need, thank you very much.) If we ever decided to turn off the pipe one day in response to one of the many American snubs, you would feel it a lot worse than we would. But of course, we would never do that - we're too nice.
(Please don't take this as a slight on the American people. I think Americans are great. It's only a comment on the rampant arrogance, mostly in the political and military circles, that make the US think it is so much better than everyone else, and thinks everyone depends on them for survival.)
I think you would also find that there are reasons why we "defend" Japan, Korea, etc. that have more to do with US interests than those being "protected".
__________________ There no need to ascribe to conspiracy that which can be attributed to indifference.
Gee, why does the world think the US is so arrogant? Maybe because of so many arrogant thoughts like this one!
Do you really think Canada could care less about the American military? Today, the US needs our oil. Mid 20th century, US was terrified that the big bad commie monsters would get closer to them through Canada. NORAD allowed the US to track the Soviets from a better position (within Canada).
None of these things have anything to do with Canada being dependent on the US military. It seems to me it's the US being dependent on Canada, or at least Canada's well being...
And we chose to spend $$ on having a universal health care system and other quality of life issues instead of on a super powerful military because we didn't and still don't have any intention of trying to antagonize the world with our idea of how things should be run or of playing world police. It has nothing to do with relying on the great American military machine.
And despite what you may think, you need us as much as we need you. (But your military, we don't need, thank you very much.) If we ever decided to turn off the pipe one day in response to one of the many American snubs, you would feel it a lot worse than we would. But of course, we would never do that - we're too nice.
(Please don't take this as a slight on the American people. I think Americans are great. It's only a comment on the rampant arrogance, mostly in the political and military circles, that make the US think it is so much better than everyone else, and thinks everyone depends on them for survival.)
Funny thing about Canada not being world police, they were/are in Kosovo, they were are in our current conflict in Afganistan. SOOOOO much for not being world police, you have been in just about every goddamn war we have been since ww1. The hypocracy of other western countries pointing there fingers at the US and calling them the world police when they are often the ones calling for action and having troops right in there as well, Its just well astounding.
All of europe and eurasia owe their existence to the US. Argue those facts if you like- won't alter the reality of it. You'd have all of europe being part of Greater Germany had the US not intervened, even putting our war in the pacific on hold to concentrate on Europe.
Russia wouldn't have survived the war either had it not been for the North Atlantic convoys moving Lend/Lease materials to them in their darkest hour.
Then in the wake of the most devestating war in europe's history, we rebuilt it. The US invented the UN, so countries even having a say in world affairs is largely the result of the US allowing them to. Instead of gobbling up nations postwar as Russia did, the US rebuilt the countries and left them to rule themselves- which now seems like a losing proposition.
Canada has hidden behind the US as have pretty much all of the Western Hemisphere. Why spend money on defending yourself when you have a big brother that's dropping the money on defense?
You could just say thank you........
As for the important early warning system, we built most of that in Alaska- Cobra Dane phased array radar system on Shemya Island. Also that same system was put on naval vessels- Cobra Judy.
The SOSUS array sonar that rings both the US and Canada was put there by the US, monitored by CincComPac in Hawaii.
It's the truth of any 'joint' venture. The US pays for it all and someone else sends some token advisors to make the coffee.
It's not arrogance- it's the way of things. We've accepted that. We pay to defend people so they don't have to. We sacrifice many things available in places that rely on the US to defend them. We don't just pay for the defense of our own country, but pretty much everyone else too.
Our problem is that we haven't issued a bill for services rendered. We just continue to prop up the economies of lesser nations, defend those that just couldn't be bothered to mount a serious defense of their own, and all the while get flak from countries that talk a big game, but in the end of the day are really just another American state.
Calling us arrogant ignores the fact that if the US simply packed our bags and left- spending that money on ourselves instead of everyone else, we'd have all those luxuries enjoyed by countries that couldn't save Kuwait from invasion, france from being a golf course for nazi's, or keep rogue nations from obtaining weapons of mass destruction.
Korea is an excellent example. When I was there we were protested, even restricted to base for fear of violence- mostly over importing rice from the US. Nevermind that is it weren't for us (and to a MUCH smaller degree, other UN countries) south korea would be mall parking for the north. Nevermind that if the US took the billions it spends on south korea every year and spent it on our own education system, healthcare, whatever- not only would the US be better off, but south korea would last about 20 seconds before the north owned it.
Don't see all these other countries sacrificing like that. Mostly because they're no different than korea is. Benefit from the US, even owe your existence to the US, but then whine and complain.
When the other countries step up the way the US does, day in and day out, then their opinions will carry weight.
For the record- I like Canada. I've partied up there alot and would love to hunt there sometime. I've been waiting for Quebec to finally break off into it's own country for as long as I can remember. Nice place, and all.
All of europe and eurasia owe their existence to the US. Argue those facts if you like- won't alter the reality of it. You'd have all of europe being part of Greater Germany had the US not intervened, even putting our war in the pacific on hold to concentrate on Europe.
Russia wouldn't have survived the war either had it not been for the North Atlantic convoys moving Lend/Lease materials to them in their darkest hour.
Then in the wake of the most devestating war in europe's history, we rebuilt it. The US invented the UN, so countries even having a say in world affairs is largely the result of the US allowing them to. Instead of gobbling up nations postwar as Russia did, the US rebuilt the countries and left them to rule themselves- which now seems like a losing proposition.
Canada has hidden behind the US as have pretty much all of the Western Hemisphere. Why spend money on defending yourself when you have a big brother that's dropping the money on defense?
You could just say thank you........
As for the important early warning system, we built most of that in Alaska- Cobra Dane phased array radar system on Shemya Island. Also that same system was put on naval vessels- Cobra Judy.
The SOSUS array sonar that rings both the US and Canada was put there by the US, monitored by CincComPac in Hawaii.
It's the truth of any 'joint' venture. The US pays for it all and someone else sends some token advisors to make the coffee.
It's not arrogance- it's the way of things. We've accepted that. We pay to defend people so they don't have to. We sacrifice many things available in places that rely on the US to defend them. We don't just pay for the defense of our own country, but pretty much everyone else too.
Our problem is that we haven't issued a bill for services rendered. We just continue to prop up the economies of lesser nations, defend those that just couldn't be bothered to mount a serious defense of their own, and all the while get flak from countries that talk a big game, but in the end of the day are really just another American state.
Calling us arrogant ignores the fact that if the US simply packed our bags and left- spending that money on ourselves instead of everyone else, we'd have all those luxuries enjoyed by countries that couldn't save Kuwait from invasion, france from being a golf course for nazi's, or keep rogue nations from obtaining weapons of mass destruction.
Korea is an excellent example. When I was there we were protested, even restricted to base for fear of violence- mostly over importing rice from the US. Nevermind that is it weren't for us (and to a MUCH smaller degree, other UN countries) south korea would be mall parking for the north. Nevermind that if the US took the billions it spends on south korea every year and spent it on our own education system, healthcare, whatever- not only would the US be better off, but south korea would last about 20 seconds before the north owned it.
Don't see all these other countries sacrificing like that. Mostly because they're no different than korea is. Benefit from the US, even owe your existence to the US, but then whine and complain.
When the other countries step up the way the US does, day in and day out, then their opinions will carry weight.
For the record- I like Canada. I've partied up there alot and would love to hunt there sometime. I've been waiting for Quebec to finally break off into it's own country for as long as I can remember. Nice place, and all.
I think you're mostly right, here, and certainly in many of the situations above our help was genuinely needed. But there is also the freeloader effect, just as you see with any welfare-type situation, in which if you reward helplessness, you get more of it. In a lot of those cases, the countries in question could be much more capable of handling their own affairs than they are, and would be if they weren't handed everything on a plate. Just like a spoiled kid, they come to (a) believe they are entitled to the free help, and (b) be resentful and rude to the helper.
I think most specifically in your example above, North Korea is a basket case, and South Korea could *easily* afford to have the forces necessary to protect themselves.
I think that the idea of presenting bills for past services rendered is not appropriate; it's too late, and we did not provide (and they did not accept) the protection with any understanding that they might have to pay for it. I think we have to just write that off. But I do think that instituting (whether directly, or by phasing it in) payments for our security services going forward would be a great idea, at least with regard to the other wealthy countries, and those countries can decide whether to buy our services or not.
PhilB
__________________
"If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other." -- Carl Schurz, (1829-1906) German born U.S. Senator and Union Army general during the US Civil War
"A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
I agree Phil, the past can't really be charged for.
But I brought up Korea because the protests there largely revolved around the issue of being required to import US rice under the trade agreements.
This was an economic issue. One that even a slight benefit to the US (the import requirement was miniscule compared to their local rice production) caused riots.
I will say though- that the older generation of Koreans still appreciate the US. It's the young ones that have never known the threat from the north that pitch a bitch. The very people that may not even be around had the US not saved the south from the north in 1950.
"Remember this day, always. For it is the doom of man that he forgets"
Solly the older people in Europe were very gratefull to Americans as well. the younger ones seemed to be bitter.
I know one of the greatest moments of my life was getting to drink from a Bottle of Jim Beam that a old lady had shared with Alllied troops liberating Denmark.
Funny thing about Canada not being world police, they were/are in Kosovo, they were are in our current conflict in Afganistan. SOOOOO much for not being world police, you have been in just about every goddamn war we have been since ww1. The hypocracy of other western countries pointing there fingers at the US and calling them the world police when they are often the ones calling for action and having troops right in there as well, Its just well astounding.
Difference being, Canada is in Afghanistan to help the country rebuild and to grow into a self sufficient nation. (It isn't working, but that's another story.) The US went into Afghanistan originally because Georgy needed someone to lash out against in retaliation for 9/11. (Not that someone didn't deserve to pay dearly for that event, just that absolutely nothing was accomplished by that "invasion".) That's not playing world police.
More importantly, we are in just about whatever wars you are in because our countries are allies, and, say what you want, we have provided much needed and appreciated support to the US, in most of those cases. We aren't "hiding behind the US". We are standing right there with you, when the need and the justification is there. You can claim otherwise if you want, but that just makes you (not aimed at any specific "you") the typical arrogant person, blind to the reality of the world as a collection of countries NOT relying on the US to survive, but working together.
I agree David, Canada is usually there to pitch in and your armed forces are quite capable but you have to admit, we do the heavy lifting.
I'll agree that some Americans like myself are arrogant, at least in the sense that I could give a fuck what anyone thinks of my country. We do what we do because we think it's right and the naysayers can go pound sand.
I wish we would quit bitching about the lack of love out there. Is that how you raise your kids?
we went into Afghanistan because that was the HQ of Osama and company. That invasion was completely understandable.
It's the Iraq invasion that is questionable in relation to 9/11. Although by all standards Iraq should have been invaded, and it should have been done a decade before GW did it.
Whether the timing of the Iraq invasion was very smart or not is more of the issue than whether it deserved invasion. Certainly Saddam needed removed- he had violated UN resolutions and the conditions of his surrender more times than you can count.
But afghanistan certainly wasn't some made up boogeyman. The Taliban and Al Queda worked hand in hand, and gave safe haven to the terrorists. Clinton bombed afghanistan several times in (a very weak) retaliation for attacks during the 90's. So to claim the afghan campaign was some GW scheme is asinine and ignores history.
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