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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
For those that need to pull their heads out of the Kool Aid powder..
I'll ask again, what would YOU do?
1/25/2008, 6:14 p.m. CST
By LILY HINDY
The Associated Press
NEW YORK (AP) — Saddam Hussein allowed the world to believe he had weapons of mass destruction to deter rival Iran and did not think the United States would stage a major invasion, according to an FBI interrogator who questioned the Iraqi leader after his capture.
Saddam expected only a limited aerial attack by the United States and thought he could remain in control, the FBI special agent, George Piro, told CBS's "60 Minutes" program in an interview to be broadcast Sunday.
"He told me he initially miscalculated ... President Bush's intentions," said Piro. "He thought the United States would retaliate with the same type of attack as we did in 1998 ... a four-day aerial attack."
"He survived that one and he was willing to accept that type of attack," Piro said.
The Associated Press spoke to a close aide of Saddam's in August 2003, who said that Saddam did not expect a U.S. invasion and deliberately kept the world guessing about his weapons program, although he already had gotten rid of it.
Saddam publicly denied having unconventional weapons before the U.S. invasion, but prevented U.N. inspectors from working in the country from 1998 until 2002 and when they finally returned in November 2002, they often complained that Iraq wasn't fully cooperating.
Piro, a Lebanese-American who speaks Arabic, debriefed Saddam after he was found hiding in an underground hideout near his home city north of Baghdad in December 2003, nine months after the U.S. invasion.
Piro said Saddam also said that he wanted to keep up the illusion that he had the program in part because he thought it would deter a likely Iranian invasion.
"For him, it was critical that he was seen as still the strong, defiant Saddam. He thought that (faking having the weapons) would prevent the Iranians from reinvading Iraq," Piro told Scott Pelley of "60 Minutes."
Piro added that Saddam had the intention of restarting an Iraqi weapons program at the time, and had engineers available for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.
Piro also mentioned Saddam's revelation during questioning that what pushed him to invade Kuwait in 1990 was a dishonorable swipe at Iraqi women made by the Kuwaiti leader, Sheik Jaber Al Ahmed Al Sabah.
During the buildup to the invasion, Iraq had accused Kuwait of flooding the world market with oil and demanded compensation for oil produced from a disputed area on the border of the two countries.
Piro said that Al Sabah told the foreign minister of Iraq during a discussion aimed at resolving some of those conflicts that "he would not stop doing what he was doing until he turned every Iraqi woman into a $10 prostitute. And that really sealed it for him, to invade Kuwait," said Piro.
As I've noted several times, I didn't (and don't) think it was unreasonable at the time to have gone in. We know now that Saddam didn't have them, but we didn't know that then, and couldn't know because he was stalling inspections and acting like he did. That's fine. The fact that Bush felt he had to falsify info and lie to get us there is not fine, and he should be held responsible for that, but that's a different issue.
But that's all irrelevant now. What I disagree with you on, and what you (and McCain, and Hillary, and the rest of the warmongers) haven't explained adequately, is after we've determined the truth about the WMDs (or lack thereof) and deposed (and executed) Saddam, what the hell we're achieving now and why we should keep flushing our people and money down that toilet. That's the issue now. And that's where Ron Paul is right about getting our people home now. The mission HAS been accomplished, and it's past time to come home. Those various factions remaining there (a) are not going to behave for us, ever, and attempt to keep a lid on that place are a neverending expensive futility, and (b) do not have WMDs or any capability for such, and are little real threat to us.
It's past time for those people to be left to figure out for themselves how they are going to govern themselves, and the only thing we need say is that if they threaten or harm us we'll respond in force, and otherwise we'll leave them to it. None of our business.
PhilB
__________________
'93 Ducati Monster 900
158,000 miles (so far)
My personal belief why we are still there is to try and promote some type of stability.You have several religious factions that historically have not gotten along, and they are seemingly getting explosives and arms from somewhere. The average citizen doesn't stand a chance in the crossfire, and the government does not have the infrastructure to protect the people.
Saddam may be gone, but there is no clear leader that the people will follow, and the military was all but decimated by our first Gulf War and the recent invasion, so the new government really does not have any means to enforce laws or protect its people.
I could be wrong, but my thinking is that if we pull out before the country can support and defend itself, we are in for more trouble. If Saddam was fearing an invasion from Iran back before the invasion, if that was ever an ambition of Iran then it would seem that Iraq would be ripe for the picking if we were to exit.
Its a huge mess, and it isn't pretty, but i think it gets even messier if we exit. My thinking is that the UN should be more involved, to try and secure peace there, but you don't see too much interest there
And I agree, if Bush knowingly led the country into war on false pretenses then there should be repercussions. If those advising him gave false information or statements, they should be subjected to some form of punishment as well.
__________________ < Where me and the bike have been
"I love the smell of race gas in the morning....smells like victory"
"If you wish upon a star, your dreams really can come true. Unless that shooting star is actually a meteor hurtling to Earth to destroy all life as we know it. Then you are pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for, unless it's death by meteor..."
^^ You nailed it. Leaving an already dangerous situation to "fix itself" is insane.
Yes, they didn't have WMD's. So what. What does that change for us TODAY? Nothing. It is what it is.
Oh, and since the whole world thought the weapons were there, why in the hell do I keep hearing people say "he lied". WTF? The whole world lied then?
Yeah, Germany (not our friend), Russia (diddo), and the Uk (buds) all were in on it, right? It was all the great right wing conspiracy!!
What we need to be focused on now is some sort of stability, however that is defined. What CANNOT happen is Iran swooping in to take advantage of our anti-warmonger move to bail on the situation. Look, try puting your hatred of Bush (oooohhh, I said it) aside and see that turning our back on Iraq WONT FIX A FUCKING THING. In fact, it WILL get worse. Big picture guys. The biggest problem we have now are extremists being armed by Iran to kill our boys. Can you imagine of Iran actually moved in? They would have us by the balls. Our economy sucks now? Try gas shooting up to $5 a gallon overnight. Imagine what the "future markets" would do then.
__________________
"What? Thats no country I've ever heard of, do they speak English in What?"
My personal belief why we are still there is to try and promote some type of stability...
That may be why we are still there, but a consistent lesson of recent history is that this doesn't ever actually work. There will be stability when the people there want it, and not before. So Iran is supplying them with weapons to drive us out; if we leave the Iraqis will still have those weapons, and if the Iranians invade they'll be facing their own weapons in the hands of people they trained themselves. Iran will get a chance to learn a lesson we seem to be unable to learn and keep repeating ourselves.
It's going to be a mess whether or not we exit; the question is whether we continue to waste our good people and money on it. These factions have been at each others throats for 1300 years, they're not going to stop for us.
=====
And, it was not the case that "the whole world thought the weapons were there"; the whole world (including us) wasn't sure whether the weapons were there or not. There was evidence in favor and evidence against. But Bush and others decided to fabricate extra "evidence" in favor (the "yellowcake" incident, for example) to force the issue. So both things are true -- there was enough evidence to reasonably justify going in to resolve the issue, AND Bush lied to get us to do it and should be held responsible for that.
And, for those who think the U.N. is some kind of answer, remember that the purpose of the economic sanctions, combined with the Oil-for-Food program, was to starve Saddam of the money to pursue his weapons, while allowing the essentials of life to be purchased for the populace. It was U.N. corruption in administering that program that allowed Saddam to divert a significant amount of that money, thus both starving Iraqis and providing more evidence that WMDs might be there.
The U.N. is basically a dictators club, in which various bad governments justify each others' actions. It amazes me that anyone would put any stock in an organization, or expect it to do any good for any people, when it is made up of entirely unelected representatives from mostly unelected governments, with essentially zero input or influence from actual people of the normal citizen variety. Just look, for example, at the collective human rights record of the nations on the "Human Rights Committee". It's a joke.
PhilB
__________________
'93 Ducati Monster 900
158,000 miles (so far)
Posts: 9,230
Casino Cash: $17339
Sportbike: Katana - Sold 8/08
I don't get it. Saddam was posturing, making it look like he had weapons. Bush knew better and invaded anyway. Is this supposed to validate his decision to twist [mis]information and carry out a plan that was formed before he took office?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastNinja76
The biggest problem we have now are extremists being armed by Iran to kill our boys.
Interrogator: Invasion surprised Saddam
< Where me and the bike have been
It was all the great right wing conspiracy!!
