Judaism, Racism and Hate : WARNING: LONG

[acalliste]

Yeah, I can understand that desire. As I said, 'on the days when I think that nothing of our conscious beings survive beyond this life' that's how I feel. I go back & forth between really feeling that we have an enduring spirit that will continue to exist in some other place/form/time, to just accepting the possibility that it could be as I described in the post above. I think the scenario above is more likely - but I'm enough of a dreamer to want to believe it doesn't end there.

Bottom line, none of us can really know what will happen until it happens. I don't think one's belief system will make it actually be one way or another. It is what it is. We'll have to deal with it when the time comes.

But I don't think death is something that should be feared and dreaded (though separation from loved ones is not pleasant). It's part of life. There is no denying that.

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

I have no copyrighted texts, and, what does that have to do with anything posted?

Sheesh. Well, one might surmise that anyone who describes himself as...

Michael Hoffman, foremost scholar of Judaism in the English-speaking world

...might have gotten another point or two wildly wrong.

[Guitar Man]

First of all I think guardianofvalhalla now holds the record for the longest post unless I am wrong. Man that took most of my morning to read.

Jesus confronted these people in the Bible. He rebuked the scribes and pharasees for having these kind of beliefs. It is no surprise that this has been going on for many years and will continue too.

Jesus showed us that we were to be forgiving of others. To love the gentiles as well as the jews. To look past the differences of culture and belief. To do what is morally right. These are His true teachings.

But due to ignorance there will always be those that will try to muddy the waters and try to prove that we are under the eyes of an angry and vengeful god, when he is actually a just and righteous God that really loves us and wants what is best for us.

Religious hate is alive and well and will remain so till the end of time I'm sad to say.

[acalliste]

Originally Posted by Guitar Man

Religious hate is alive and well and will remain so till the end of time I'm sad to say.

"Religious hate" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can't think of many other things that have created & propagated more hate than organized religion.

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

I posted without my commentary because I wanted to get OTHER people's gut reactions to the "document". I know my own position, so I didn't need to see it again. Please, do not ever speak of my wife again. That is crossing the line with me and your implications regarding her faith are iring to me at the least. She is not to be spoken of by you or anyone else on the boards. I did bring her up to solidify my position as not being an anti-semite, and for no other purpose. You and alot of Jews are on some type of crusade to call anyone who disagrees with your thinking and laws an anti-semite, knowing that most people will back down immediately for fear of being socially chastised after being branded with such a label, true, or not.

Because someone offers up a different opinion and supports it with facts, doesn't make them an anti-semite, but an educated person. Do Christians go around claiming Jews are anti-catholic, and if so, the stigma attached to it would be laughable. How about Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann, who wrote "It follows then that those individuals who "decided" that Judaism is a nationality are to be ignored and even criticized."He must be an anti-semite, huh? How about the the Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum? Is he an anti-semite also, for publicly stating that the Zionists were physically and spiritually responsible for the Holocaust? Get a grip. Stand up, be a man and quit hiding behind the "shield" of anti-semitism! You and your people shall all be better off for it. It is a cowardly move at best, and one that needs to be eliminated from people's vocabularies, unless it is really true.

Most Jews would be offended hearing/reading this? You are kidding about this, right? Most jews are either orthodox or Hasidic! They are the ones that strictly adhere to the teachings of the Talmud! It is the jew that follows reform judaism that doesn't abide by it's laws! They make up approximately 5% of the global jewish population. So, MOST jews wouldn't be offended by it! One can not just decide to "modernize" ancient traditions or regulations. The spiritual leaders of contemporary Judaism better known as Orthodox rabbis have received ordination to judge and interpret matters pertaining to the Jewish faith. These rabbis have received their rights and responsibilities and form a link in the unbroken chain of the Jewish tradition dating all the way back to Moses who received the Torah from Almighty God Himself. Is this not true?

You are right that most people lose sight about what religion is intended to do for society! It's only purpose is to control people! Nothing more, nothing less. Yes, you read that correctly, CONTROL! What easier way to control people than to control their thoughts and actions with something that has no tangible qualities and that is so vague as to not be able to be quantified, all the while demanding, "blind" and unmavering diliigence and adherence to it's laws? Anyone that believes it's for some greater good, is a foolhardy daydreamer at best!

The difficulty with that is that the document you posted IS anti-semitic. The author has a clear agenda to demonize Judaism in order to promote his own brand of Christianity, so his proclamations cannot be trusted. If one was to go and verify his claims independently, as you claim to have done, then you could see that he has a few points, although those points have nothing to do with his goalof convincing people to Christianity.

So posting that without comment will quite reasonably draw comments regarding anti-semitism, and those comments will not necessarily be kneejerk reactions against any form of criticism, because the articel you posted in genuinely anti-semitic. See?

I agree with you that religion is largely about control, although it is really much more complicated than that. I agree with you that some people reflexively use accusations of anti-semitism (or sexism, or racism, etc.) to deflect criticism, although that doesn't mean that *all* such accusations are false.

And the proportion of Jews worldwide that are not orthodix or Hasidic is *way* more than 5%. I don't know where you got that number, but it's ridiculously inaccurate.

PhilB

[guardianofvalhalla]

Originally Posted by PhilB

The difficulty with that is that the document you posted IS anti-semitic. PhilB

That is your interpretation of what his intentions were. Your interpretation does not make it fact. Do you know the gentleman that wrote it? Did you ask him what his intentions were? You are assuming his intentions and have no real proof to support your slanderous accusations. He has a right, in this country, to free speech, which he chose to exercise and you take it upon yourself to besmirch his name? You know nothing of the author or his intentions.

Originally Posted by PhilB

And the proportion of Jews worldwide that are not orthodix or Hasidic is *way* more than 5%. I don't know where you got that number, but it's ridiculously inaccurate.

PhilB

It is ridiculously inaccurate, you're right! I gave them 5% that aren't Orthodox or Hasidic, when the entire global Jewish population including both of those groups is less than 1/2% It's near 2% for all of them combined in the U.S. I can supply multiple jewish backed statistics to prove it, if you require, since I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite.

[mikem317]

Originally Posted by acalliste

"Religious hate" is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I can't think of many other things that have created & propagated more hate than organized religion.

I think there's a distinction being made between faith and organized religion, but I may be speaking out of turn.

[acalliste]

Yes, I think there is a difference. But when you start assigning human traits to "god" esp to justify your religion's actions, try to convince others you know "his" intentions, and start quoting scripture to prove all of this, that's not just your personal faith anymore. That's when it becomes "organized". ;)

[guardianofvalhalla]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

Sheesh. Well, one might surmise that anyone who describes himself as...



...might have gotten another point or two wildly wrong.

I still don't understand what me being the holder of copyrights with the U.S. Patents office has to do with this mans writing? Maybe you can clarify why I need to have copyrighted any of my writing to justify what he says? My copyrights, or lack thereof, have nothing to do with someone else's opinions. Does it?

[guardianofvalhalla]

Originally Posted by acalliste

Yes, I think there is a difference. But when you start assigning human traits to "god" esp to justify your religion's actions, try to convince others you know "his" intentions, and start quoting scripture to prove all of this, that's not just your personal faith anymore. That's when it becomes "organized". ;)

+1!

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

That is your interpretation of what his intentions were. Your interpretation does not make it fact. Do you know the gentleman that wrote it? Did you ask him what his intentions were? You are assuming his intentions and have no real proof to support your slanderous accusations. He has a right, in this country, to free speech, which he chose to exercise and you take it upon yourself to besmirch his name? You know nothing of the author or his intentions.

I had only to read what he wrote to understand his intentions. He is not stupid, nor unintelligible. His writing is quite clear, as are his intentions. A great many of his Talmudic passages are taken out of context and misinterpreted in ways that could make equal mincemeat of the Bible he is defending. Many other of his condemnations of the Talmud have mostly to do with the fact that the Jews rejected Jesus and Christianity, which of course they did, otherwise they wouldn't still be Jews. Duh.

Yep, he's got a right to spout his beliefs; I did not in any way say otherwise. And I've got an equal right to call his ideas bullshit. As for your own accusations of "slander" and "besmirch[ing] his name", truth is an effective defense against such accusations. If he is in fact spouting the usual line of anti-semitic crap (and he is), then it is no slander to say so. And no besmirchment, since that is the writing he himself puts his own name on.

Originally Posted by Michael A. Hoffman II

Christ condemned the traditions of the Mishnah (early Talmud) and those who taught it (Scribes and Pharisees), because the Talmud nullifies the teachings of the Holy Bible.

Shmuel Safrai in The Literature of the Sages Part One (p.164), points out that in chapters 4 and 5 of the Talmud's Gittin Tractate, the Talmud nullifies the Biblical teaching concerning money-lending: ...

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 7:1-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, ...

Unfortunately, due to the abysmal ignorance of our day, the widespread "Judeo-Christian" notion is that the Old Testament is the supreme book of Judaism. But this is not so. The Pharisees teach for doctrine the commandments of rabbis, not God.

The Talmudic commentary on the Bible is their supreme law, and not the Bible itself. That commentary does indeed, as Jesus said, void the laws of God, not uphold them.

So he goes off for a while on how Jesus said the Jews were bad ...

Originally Posted by Michael A. Hoffman II

Insults Against Blessed Mary
Gloats over Christ Dying Young
Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ
Talmud Attacks Christians and Christian Books

... lists their terrible blasphemies ...

Originally Posted by Michael A. Hoffman II

These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

U.S. Government Lays Groundwork for Talmudic Courts

"Our" government under Presidents Reagan, Bush and Clinton, has provided, under the euphemism of education (for example, House Joint Resolution 173 and Public Law 102-14), a groundwork for the establishment of Talmudic "courts of justice" to be administered by disciples of Shneur Zalman's Chabad successor, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson.

American taxpayers' subsidy of the so-called "U.S. Holocaust Museum" in Washington, D.C., is yet another indicator of the gradual establishment of a Jewish state religion in the U.S.

... goes on to the usual "Jews secretly taking over/running the world" crap ...

Originally Posted by Michael A. Hoffman II

Furthermore, the Israeli "Star of David," is actually nothing of the kind, but rather an occult hexagram, ...

Christians might find it eye-opening to visit a Hasidic Jewish area during "Purim" and observe the grotesque, Halloween-like cavorting.

Orthodox rabbis place curses, cast spells and imagine they have powers greater than God, ...

... goes on next to the witchery accusations, very academic and expert-like ... and concludes with the point that matters to him, that

Originally Posted by Michael A. Hoffman II

Christianity is the only true religion of the Bible. It was founded by Israelites who adhered to the Torah (Pentateuch) and who recognized in Christ's gospel of salvation through grace, the fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is the followers of Jesus who constitute the holy nation and the royal priesthood (I Peter 2:9).

So, in other words, not a rational critique, not an honest evaluation, not an unbiased look, not a trustworthy approach. An anti-semitic hit piece, hypocritical as all hell, because the Jews have the audacity to have different religious beliefs than Mr. Hoffman, whose faith documents, traditions, history, and churches are no better.
==========

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

It is ridiculously inaccurate, you're right! I gave them 5% that aren't Orthodox or Hasidic, when the entire global Jewish population including both of those groups is less than 1/2% It's near 2% for all of them combined in the U.S. I can supply multiple jewish backed statistics to prove it, if you require, since I don't want to be labeled as an anti-semite.

Orthodox and Hasidic aren't 95% of Jews even in Israel, much less worldwide. So yes, please provide these statistics, with sources. Hopefully sources more credible than Mr. Hoffman.

PhilB

[guardianofvalhalla]

Originally Posted by PhilB

I had only to read what he wrote to understand his intentions. He is not stupid, nor unintelligible. His writing is quite clear, as are his intentions. A great many of his Talmudic passages are taken out of context and misinterpreted in ways that could make equal mincemeat of the Bible he is defending. Many other of his condemnations of the Talmud have mostly to do with the fact that the Jews rejected Jesus and Christianity, which of course they did, otherwise they wouldn't still be Jews. Duh.

Yep, he's got a right to spout his beliefs; I did not in any way say otherwise. And I've got an equal right to call his ideas bullshit. As for your own accusations of "slander" and "besmirch[ing] his name", truth is an effective defense against such accusations. If he is in fact spouting the usual line of anti-semitic crap (and he is), then it is no slander to say so. And no besmirchment, since that is the writing he himself puts his own name on.


So he goes off for a while on how Jesus said the Jews were bad ...


... lists their terrible blasphemies ...


... goes on to the usual "Jews secretly taking over/running the world" crap ...


... goes on next to the witchery accusations, very academic and expert-like ... and concludes with the point that matters to him, that


So, in other words, not a rational critique, not an honest evaluation, not an unbiased look, not a trustworthy approach. An anti-semitic hit piece, hypocritical as all hell, because the Jews have the audacity to have different religious beliefs than Mr. Hoffman, whose faith documents, traditions, history, and churches are no better.
==========

Orthodox and Hasidic aren't 95% of Jews even in Israel, much less worldwide. So yes, please provide these statistics, with sources. Hopefully sources more credible than Mr. Hoffman.

PhilB

Let me get this straight, so that I understand your intention. He is an anti-semite for using his religious beliefs and teachings to discredit other religions? This makes him the hypocrite? This also makes him an anti-semite? So the Jews are allowed to do this very thing with no negative labeling or repurcussions, however, when a Christian does it, it is evil in the eyes of the world? Who really is the hypocrite?

I was referring to 5% of the global population being non Orthodox or Hasidic! Not 5% of the Jewish global population! My initial estimates were off. I admitted that and corrected it. The number of Orthodox and hasidic jews is rising rapidly, compared to their not so strict brethren. These are the people that live and die by the laws set forth in the Talmud, and that, I find to be frightening!

[750rider]

Originally Posted by PhilB

The difficulty with that is that the document you posted IS anti-semitic. The author has a clear agenda to demonize Judaism in order to promote his own brand of Christianity, so his proclamations cannot be trusted. PhilB

hmm I just googled

Holocaust-Denial Literature: A Third Bibliography

This bibliography is a supplement to two earlier ones published in the March 1994 and December 1996 issues of the Bulletin of Bibliography. During the intervening time, Holocaust revisionism has continued to be discussed both in the scholarly literature and the mainstream press. The Holocaust deniers, who prefer to call themselves "revisionists" in an attempt to gain scholarly legitimacy, have refused to go away and remain as vocal as ever--Bradley R. Smith has continued to send revisionist advertisements to college newspapers, generating publicity for his cause.

Holocaust-denial, which will be used interchangeably with Holocaust revisionism in this bibliography, is a body of literature that seeks to "prove" that the Jewish Holocaust did not happen. Although individual revisionists may have different motives and beliefs, they all share at least one point: that there was no systematic attempt by Nazi Germany to exterminate European Jewry. Hence they claim that the Holocaust is a "hoax" perpetrated by Jews ("Zionists") in an attempt to blackmail the rest of the world for sympathy, money, and legitimacy for the State of Israel.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=10&gl=ca

google hits
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...e+speech&meta=


This guy and irans president have alot in common

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

Let me get this straight, so that I understand your intention. He is an anti-semite for using his religious beliefs and teachings to discredit other religions? This makes him the hypocrite? This also makes him an anti-semite? So the Jews are allowed to do this very thing with no negative labeling or repurcussions, however, when a Christian does it, it is evil in the eyes of the world? Who really is the hypocrite?

Anyone who criticizes some for actions that he condones for himself or others is a hypocrite. That's pretty much the definition of the word.

He is an anti-semite for dredging up a pile of half-assed accusations for no other purpose than to get more people to hate Jews. To take a similar analogy, if one was to write something about the Catholic priest scandal that was aimed at helping to solve the problem, or explain it, and your writing was fair, true, and fact-based, then you would not be anti-Catholic. If, on the other hand, you simply dredged up every bad thing that any group of Catholics had done since the Middle Ages, simply to discredit Catholics as people, then you would be anti-Catholic. See? This Mr. Hoffman is equivalent to the latter.

Originally Posted by guardianofvalhalla

I was referring to 5% of the global population being non Orthodox or Hasidic! Not 5% of the Jewish global population! My initial estimates were off. I admitted that and corrected it. The number of Orthodox and hasidic jews is rising rapidly, compared to their not so strict brethren. These are the people that live and die by the laws set forth in the Talmud, and that, I find to be frightening!

WTF? "5% of the global population being non Orthodox or Hasidic"?? You've just claimed that 95% of the world is Orthodox or Hasidic Jews. Perhaps you have put a negative where you oughtn't to have? All Jews make up perhaps 2% of the world population. If you argure that Orthodox and Hasidic Jews make up about 1/4 of Jews, and so that Orthodox and Hasidic Jews are about 1/2% of the world population, then you are more in line with reality, or at least making a bit of sense.

Although even then I don't see the real issue here. Even if Mr. Hoffman is right, and some Jews believe in really repulsive things, how is that different from the Christianity that Mr. Hoffman espouses? Yes, Israel has made quite a contribution to the mess in the Middle East, although they certainly haven't done so all by themselves. And worldwide, the damage done by Jewish zealots is miniscule compared to that done by Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or socialist zealots. Why the bug up your nose about Jews?

PhilB

[PhilB]

Originally Posted by 750rider

google hits
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...e+speech&meta=

This guy and irans president have alot in common

He's not only the "foremost scholar of Judaism in the English-speaking world", he's also a prominent reknowned authority on Masons, the "Cryptocracy" and ritual crimes. Not to mention what he calls the "Holohoax". Quite a brilliant and reliable reference you've connected us all to, Mr. Valhalla. We're all in your debt.

PhilB