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Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
At a time when it's getting more and more obvious that Gonzales is a prized puppet for Bush and has no regard to our rights. At a time when we're learning how big this intelligence program really is. At a time when courts have started ruling against secretly spying on us... They pass this bill.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot???
Quote:
Senate votes to expand spy authority
The last-minute legislation gives agencies more power to track foreign communications and removes the court approval process.
By Greg Miller, Times Staff Writer
August 4, 2007
WASHINGTON — Bowing to pressure from the Bush administration, the Senate passed emergency legislation Friday that would significantly expand the authority of U.S. spy agencies to monitor overseas phone calls and e-mails.
It also would remove requirements for court approval when those communications passed through the United States.
The measure would clear away an array of legal obstacles that President Bush and top intelligence officials said were impeding the nation's ability to track the communications of Al Qaeda operatives and other terrorism suspects abroad.
The House is scheduled to vote on an identical bill today; congressional officials said they expected the measure to pass. On Friday, the House rejected a competing version offered by Democrats.
The Senate bill, approved 60-28, "will give our intelligence professionals the essential tools they need to protect our nation," said White House spokesman Tony Fratto.
"It is urgent that this legislation become law as quickly as possible."
The Senate's action was a key victory for Bush at a time when adverse court rulings and dismal approval ratings have forced his administration to retreat from some of its most aggressive assertions of executive authority in the war on terrorism.
Bush had pressured Congress to pass the legislation before it left on a monthlong break, with administration officials repeatedly pointing to recent intelligence reports that have warned that Al Qaeda is regrouping in Pakistan and has refocused on striking the United States.
The measure's scope stopped short of the overhaul Bush had sought, and it is scheduled to expire in six months so that lawmakers can evaluate its changes.
Those voting against the bill included Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.). He said the legislation lacked "the privacy protections and safeguards American citizens deserve and expect."
At the heart of the debate is a collection of espionage laws known as the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, passed in 1978 to crack down on abuses by spy agencies accused of illegally spying on Americans.
Since then, U.S. intelligence agencies have been required to obtain prior approval from a special FISA court before intercepting the communications of people in the United States, even if they are foreign citizens suspected of having ties to terrorist groups.
Intelligence officials have complained bitterly that the nearly 30-year-old statute has failed to keep pace with profound technological changes such as cellular telephones and the Internet.
Under the Senate bill's central provision, if the government could show that surveillance targets were "reasonably believed" to be overseas, prior court approval would not be required.
The measure would give new authority to the attorney general and the director of national intelligence to make that determination.
Democrats had fought this language, largely because of their expressed distrust of Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales, who has recently been accused of misleading Congress in testimony about U.S. wiretapping operations.
But Democrats ultimately relented after the White House made concessions. One concession would require the government to submit the overall structure of the surveillance program to the FISA court for review of the procedures under which the attorney general and intelligence director determined that surveillance targets were indeed overseas.
Soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to bypass courts and monitor international communications, even those of U.S. citizens, in cases when one of those communicating was believed to have ties to Al Qaeda.
In January, facing scrutiny from Congress and accusations that the program was unconstitutional, Bush shifted the program to the FISA court's purview.
Sometime later, however, a FISA judge ruled that certain aspects of the Bush administration surveillance program violated the law. Intelligence officials indicated that the ruling required the government to obtain warrants even for "foreign to foreign" communications when the e-mail or phone call crossed networks in the United States.
That secret ruling — the court's deliberations are classified — caused a panic in intelligence circles.
National Intelligence Director J. Michael McConnell warned that U.S. spy agencies were suddenly unable to collect dangerously large swaths of foreign communications.
Such warnings, combined with the recent intelligence on Al Qaeda's resurgence, led to the last-minute scramble by lawmakers to devise a patch allowing the surveillance.
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It's basically like this. Courts (even secret courts that could do whatever the fuck they wanted to since nobody really knows how or why they rule) ruled that they were violating the law by allowing them to spy on communications within the U.S. without a warrant. So they supposedly stopped doing it. Then Congress scrambled around and drafted an "Oh Shit" bill to make it legal.
They're all just worthless. Maybe, just maybe, it won't pass the House, but I doubt it.
I don't have a problem with them wiretapping suspicious people to gather information, but why in the hell can't they just do it a warrant?? I know it's not for timing issues. Hell, it probably takes longer to set up the wiretap than it does to get a warrant. Our entire government is based on checks and balances, and if you don't have it, their power is uncapped.
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Who needs checks and balances? Who needs vigilance in protecting liberty? Who the hell cares if Congress takes a vacation?
Any time they're not passing legislation is when they're doing their best work. I swear, we need to vote out the whole damn bunch of them...every damn one starting at the top!
__________________ There no need to ascribe to conspiracy that which can be attributed to indifference.
The great majority of Democrats voted for the Patriot Act, too. And also for letting Bush decide on his own whether to invade Iraq. But the Democrat leaders keep making lip service noises about keeping those terrible Republicans in check, and their constituents keep believing them, even after decades of failure to even try very hard.
I keep saying that it's well past time to desert the Big Two and go to third parties en masse. Any third party; I don't care. Join the Socialist Party or the American Communist Party if you like. Whatever it takes to break the duopoly stranglehold the Republicans and Democrats have on our system.
PhilB
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I changed the title of your thread so that when people open the main page they don't see "motherfuckin" first thing.
__________________ William (Will) SBN
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it's not the 'system' that is at fault. It's actually a well thought out and well intended system the founding fathers came up with.
It's the fact that we've had 200 years of corrupt forces using that system to it's own ends.
There may be a shelf life on true liberty- and perhaps we passed the due date.
I don't blame the US system. I blame the fucktards ruining it. Both republicans and democrats are pretty much worthless to the people of this country. They are useful to those signing the campaign checks..
You really think ANY of the current heap of shysters trying to con you out of a vote give a rats ass about you or this country?
The entire country is merely the chessboard they play their petty power games on. We are their pawns and nothing more.
Neither of those parties are deserving of a single vote. And anyone that hitches their wagons to either party has proven they are nothing but puppets, dancing on the strings of those with enough money to buy an election.
The moment anyone puts an R or D behind their name- they are bought and paid for.
Some straightforward voting reforms would go a long ways toward making the system we have work a lot better. Reform of ballot access laws, ensuring that candidates of smaller parties could get on the ballot without undue effort would help a lot. In conjunction with which, voting reforms such as IRV or another fair voting system where people could feel free to vote for who they actually want, instead of just against who they hate the most, would make a huge difference. And whatever it takes to get rid of electronic hackery and get the votes counted in public view.
I don't know how to get these reforms implemented. it will take a huge and sustained push from a very large number of people. My opinion is that ALL of the small parties should meet and agree to work together on these issues and these issues alone until they are solved. Drop everything else, because you can't accomplish anything else without these reforms. Ignore all differences and other platforms. Just set it all aside and work together to make the system accessible to independent parties and candidates. THEN we can all get back to our actual goals, and squabble about all the rest of it. Until then, it's all pretty moot, as the big two can just point and laugh, knowing they'll never face a real challenge from any of us for as long as they can maintain the system as it is.
PhilB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSollyLama
it's not the 'system' that is at fault. It's actually a well thought out and well intended system the founding fathers came up with.
It's the fact that we've had 200 years of corrupt forces using that system to it's own ends.
There may be a shelf life on true liberty- and perhaps we passed the due date.
I don't blame the US system. I blame the fucktards ruining it. Both republicans and democrats are pretty much worthless to the people of this country. They are useful to those signing the campaign checks..
You really think ANY of the current heap of shysters trying to con you out of a vote give a rats ass about you or this country?
The entire country is merely the chessboard they play their petty power games on. We are their pawns and nothing more.
Neither of those parties are deserving of a single vote. And anyone that hitches their wagons to either party has proven they are nothing but puppets, dancing on the strings of those with enough money to buy an election.
The moment anyone puts an R or D behind their name- they are bought and paid for.
The system IS fucked up.
There is NO WAY a viable alternative candidate has ANY shot of being elected.
Those moth$%&&$#@ democrats
