If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
I disagree Phil. I don't think there are that many innocent people put to death. I think that is a number trumpeted without much support to back it. It's a pseudoscience like so many others used to gain a political point. The truth be damned.
The simple fact is death isn't much of a deterrent except to THAT person. However, neither is the coddling we give prisoners now.
Both systems need totally revamped. Complete overhauls. The free cable tv, magazines, education, and air conditioned cells AMAZINGLY haven't stopped offenders from walking right back out to cause mayhem again. It's a failure.
The death penalty comes with an automatic appeal, thus making the entire expensive first trial pointless. Then comes the decade or more of appeals and other time wasting tactics for people who are, despite claims to the contrary are overwhelmingly guilty of what they are accused of.
If crime was actually PUNISHED in this country, perhaps this conversation would be moot. But the system is broken from top to bottom. It is often a better life behind bars than criminals had on the street. Hell I DON"T GET FREE CABLE TV. I pay for my medical and if I want a law degree, I'll be in debt till my retirement to pay for it.
I'm not saying the system for capital punishment is a good one. But tossing out the baby with the bath water isn't the answer. Fix it. Or fix it so committing capital crimes is punished so badly it stops and we don't NEED the death penalty anymore.
Until then, dropping the switch on the likes of Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and their ilk is just fine with me.
I fully agree that the current system needs a serious revamp. A good start would be to repeal laws against victimless "crimes", which would greatly reduce the burden on the system in the first place.
The number of innocent people who actually get put to death is pretty small, because we don't actually put many people to death at all. Most of them wind up on Death Row for decades. But quite a few on Death Row have been exonerated in time, and some are known to have *not* been exonerated in time. But I don't think it takes very many executions of the innocent at all to decide that perhaps this isn't such a good idea.
I like how you lob out "innocent people put to death .. number trumpeted without much support ... a pseudoscience ... to gain a political point. The truth be damned", and then turn right around and go full on with the "coddled prisoners with free everything and no reason not to go back to their comfy cells" myth. Prison is no picnic, even with air conditioning and cable TV.
I agree that actual crimes (with actual victims) should be punished, swiftly and surely. I think that "crimes" without actual victims should not be punished. I think the death penalty is too final for such a fallible system. Most of the guys on Death Row aren't "Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and their ilk", and in a great many of them the cases against them aren't nearly so clear cut.
PhilB
__________________
"If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other." -- Carl Schurz, (1829-1906) German born U.S. Senator and Union Army general during the US Civil War
"A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
Most people who oppose the death penalty believe that killing people for any reason other than the defense of another life is wrong, period. I do not see how this case would change any minds on that score. The people who support it have to accept that killing people is actually OK under the right circumstances, even if they do not present a clear and present threat to anyone else.
If either of those two belief systems rest on shakey logical ground it is the later.
For the record, I support the death penalty. I also feel that the way we apply it is immoral. In order for the death penalty to function as a detterent it has to be seen as a likely result from crimes, not something that is so rarely applied. In other words, if we are going to execute people for select crimes then we need to do it EVERY time, not just when it seems like a fun idea.
I really don't think it acts as a deterrent , frankly the way the death penatly works is appalling to me ...I mean the end result is what is good but the in between there pisses me off immensly. I mean if some sick dude is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt , mass murder, child molester whatever , why do they get to sit in jail for years watchin t.v., getting food and we have to pay for it . last time I checked there was a deficit problem and I am by now means willing to pay from some sick fuck to enjoy living a few years longer when he should be shot . I got no problem donating money for bullets , yer proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt then let's go out back and GITTER DONE !
Oh yeah and I read in some other thread some said he thought KC was batshit crazy , at the time I though that was a little harsh .......now I see lolololol!! Get him back here this is good , maye we can find out what kinda meds he is on
If you realized that reincarnation was real I think you'd see how silly capital punishment is, no matter how overkill their crimes are.
Since you believe in this nonsense, why wouldn't you think that's even MORE of a reason to off these pricks?!?
I mean...since in the belief of reincarnation...if you're a good person you move up in the scale in your next life but if you're a bad person you move down. So logically the "bad" people should be moved down as soon as possible so they can learn and not repeat it the next life!
__________________
You're not going to be happy unless you're going MACH 2 with your hair on fire! You know that.
Which crimes? Just wondering if we're on the same page or not.
Anything that does not harm any child, or any adult who does not consent to the activity. So:
> Any economic or financial exchanges, as long as fraud is not involved, including the hiring of or rental to any person, American or not,
> Travel, including travel by non-Americans,
> Consumption of drugs (by adults), as well as production and sales, etc.,
> Any consensual sex (by adults),
> Ownership of any gun, or anything else unless it poses a clear and present danger to others (e.g. OK, no basement bio-weapons labs),
> Free choice of career, without mandatory licensing/permitting/etc. (bearing in mind that one can still be held liable for damage one does if one is not competent to perform the job),
> Freedom to use, misuse, improve, or even destroy your own property (bearing in mind that polluting another's property is damage to him),
> Etc., etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem317
I don't believe in the use as a deterrent. Criminals act irrationally, are not pragmatic, and evidence suggests this anyway.
Many studies have shown that crime is deterred by the *likelihood* of punishment, not its severity. That is, if the criminal thinks he's going to get away with it, what happens if he doesn't is generally a small consideration to him. If he doesn't think he's going to get away with it, he's less likely to do it, even if the punishment is not severe. This is also why criminals tend to fear armed citizens a lot more than legal repercussions. An armed citizen at the scene is clearly dangerous to him; a cop, unless he's right there at the scene at the moment, may or may not be a danger to him, depending on a lot of factors.
PhilB
__________________
"If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other." -- Carl Schurz, (1829-1906) German born U.S. Senator and Union Army general during the US Civil War
"A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper." -- Ludwig von Mises
its cheaper to execute them than let them rot.....we gotta pay for this war somehow.
I remember doing a research project on this as an undergrad. I thought, but can't remember that these is less cash outflow associated with life-long incarceration than execution. Not sure though.
> Free choice of career, without mandatory licensing/permitting/etc. (bearing in mind that one can still be held liable for damage one does if one is not competent to perform the job)
That is a VERY bad idea. Especially in jobs where lives can depend on the quality of work. The average person can not judge the competence of a professional, because they are nowhere near educated enough on the subject. There has to be a knowledgeable organization to judge said professionals competence. For me, as an engineer, it is the Alabama Board of Licensure for Engineers and Land Surveyors. There are times when many people will die if an incompetent engineer signs of on a bad plan (i.e. civil engineer signing off on a bridge that collapses full of cars, or architectural engineer signs off on a building plan that, when built, collapses full of people). I know I would not want anybody in my family going to a doctor when there is nobody knowledgeable about medicine to tell me that they are qualified.
__________________
doublEEsta
Global Warming - A phenomenon where natural climatic cycles coincide with liberal aspirations.
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
Don't spread my WEALTH...Spread my WORK ETHIC!
I remember doing a research project on this as an undergrad. I thought, but can't remember that these is less cash outflow associated with life-long incarceration than execution. Not sure though.
i think i've heard that as well, but i just can't get past the math. food alone has to be more expensive than a shot (bullet or IV)...im curious as to a cost comparison.
i think i've heard that as well, but i just can't get past the math. food alone has to be more expensive than a shot (bullet or IV)...im curious as to a cost comparison.
It's not the shot that costs so much. It is all the legal fees associated with the many appeals.
__________________
doublEEsta
Global Warming - A phenomenon where natural climatic cycles coincide with liberal aspirations.
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass." - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
Don't spread my WEALTH...Spread my WORK ETHIC!
If you realized that reincarnation was real I think you'd see how silly capital punishment is, no matter how overkill their crimes are.
Thanks, after all the studies that show the death penalty does not deter violent crimes and the many inmates who have been freed after being wrongly convicted ...you go with the reicarnation angle. Thanks, thanks a lot for making the rest of the anti-death penalty community look like idiots.
__________________
2001 gsxr 600 : 2007 front end swap,Harris Carbon Fender,LeoVince SBK,K&N, Ohlins stabilizer,ExtremeTeach Shock,Goodridge brake lines, Michelin Pilots, fender eliminator, 954 tail light, CRG Shorty levers, 520 conversion Vortex DID EVR III, Puig Race, Carbon Fibre mirrors, Vortex rearsets
It's not the shot that costs so much. It is all the legal fees associated with the many appeals.
Regardless of how silly the appeals are they are still allowed to waste time and money , I mean I am all for an appeal if you have some solid validity behind it , but if your just wasting time and money so you can hold off a little longer you shouldn't be allowed to do it . System in some ways works very well in others ...what a joke
Linear Mode
