Wiretapping Nixed?

[Punkwood2k]

Originally Posted by steingar

Secret wiretaps are a really bad, bad, bad thing. Its how secret police keep tabs on the citizenry in totolitarian states. I have no doubt that the current administration is only using these to combat terrorism, but if allowed to stand the line will be crossed where a future government will use them for political purposes. Most importantly, they are illegal in this country. Yahh, it would be easier for the cops or the FBI or whoever to bust in wherever and whenever they want. However, America would no longer be the land of the free.

They had a big flap in Colorado a couple years ago, because someone spilled the beans on secret wiretapping we had going on. People that took part in peaceful anti-anything rallies had files 6 inches thick of every meeting they went to, every conversation, everything they did. And they never broke the law, but they had HUGE amounts of time put into investigating them.
And someone said it doesnt affect them, so why should they worry?
Well, you might not be breaking the law now, but what if they ban speaking against the government? Then you can suddenly be arrested for an offhand comment to a friend. The things that are legal now, may not be in 5 years. I smoke. used to be legal.. Now, it technically legal, but the fine for smoking in a public place is TWICE the fine for smoking pot.. Used to be a law-abiding citizen, now I am a criminal.. go figure.

[crx81]

Originally Posted by Punkwood2k

The things that are legal now, may not be in 5 years. I smoke. used to be legal.. Now, it technically legal, but the fine for smoking in a public place is TWICE the fine for smoking pot.. Used to be a law-abiding citizen, now I am a criminal.. go figure.

+1 Domestic spying on U.S. citizens is a bad thing no matter how you look at it. What will be illegal tomorrow? Read the Patriot Act and it's successors... it's downright frightening.

I remember growing up how the U.S.S.R. was the evil empire. Not only were they considered evil because they were our enemy, but also because of how they treated their own people... like domestic spying by the KGB. I couldn't imagine what it was like to live under that kind of fear and opression. No, 20 years later, not only can I imagine it, but a large group of people in this country are ignorant enough to not only defend it, but to nearly demand it! So much for the land of the free...

[jk750]

Originally Posted by hanglowejohnson

So because that wrong was perpetrated in the past that makes a similar wrong done today ok?

Let's hope that isn't where you were going with that....

As an aside.. is it, or is it not part of the patriot act that there is no minimum to hold someone without being actually under arrest?

We as citizens (you as an LE included) CANNOT for one second allow our liberties to errode... you may be on the outside looking in now, but what happens when YOU are the one losing your freedom because of other people's fear?

Not what I said at all. I'm just saying don't look at this as a conservative/liberal agenda thing. This would be going on to some extent no matter which party was in power. And it always has.

The patriot act does not allow for holding any random citizen without cause for unlimited time. They don't just pluck people randomly, without any evidence. Nor can they remove entire groups of citizens from society, like they did under FDR.

Let's remember, there is an enemy out there right now that wants to kill you and me just because we were born in this country. It is real. They want to kill you. If the government did not do anything at all to try and prevent that from happening, who would be complaining the loudest the next time something did happen?

The primary function of government is to preserve liberty. But it is also to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and to promote the general welfare. - As stated in the Preamble.

I'm Libertarian, I do take civil and individual liberties very seriously.

[crx81]

Originally Posted by jk750

Let's remember, there is an enemy out there right now that wants to kill you and me just because we were born in this country. It is real. They want to kill you. If the government did not do anything at all to try and prevent that from happening, who would be complaining the loudest the next time something did happen?
The primary function of government is to preserve liberty. But it is also to establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and to promote the general welfare. - As stated in the Preamble.

There's lots of enemies out there. Here in Florida, home invasions happen quite a bit. Should we have the government install cameras in our houses so they can monitor us for our safety? Just think, not only could they catch the bad guys on film for identification and prosecution purposes, but they could respond immediately and maybe catch them in the act! And as long as we're not doing anything wrong, what do we care if they monitor us???

Absurd, isn't it? Yet no less absurd than endorsing our own version of the KGB. Tell me, where does it end? How much freedom (that those who went before us gave thier lives for) do we give up in the name of safety? Ol' Ben said it best... "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Although, Patrick Henry seemed a little biased on the subject when he stated, "Give me liberty or give me death!" It seems to me that his freedom was more valuable to him than his personal safety. Then again, those men had much bigger balls than the current batch of Americans who want to run and hide under Momma Georgie's incompetant skirt!

[fire735]

Originally Posted by crx81

There's lots of enemies out there. Here in Florida, home invasions happen quite a bit. Should we have the government install cameras in our houses so they can monitor us for our safety? Just think, not only could they catch the bad guys on film for identification and prosecution purposes, but they could respond immediately and maybe catch them in the act! And as long as we're not doing anything wrong, what do we care if they monitor us???

Since terroristic acts are generally commited against people (groups in public places), the government is required to "protect" us. Home invasions are commited against a family. YOU are responsible for your OWN personal safety on your property. The government is not required to protect you in your own home, against the common criminal.
You can bash the current administration all you want, but the fact remains that the libs gave the administration the authority to do what it is doing today. What it is doing today is protecting your ass, like it or not. Not since 9-11-2001 has this country been attacked (so they're doing one hellova job IMHO).
BTW... this program was not a blank check to listen in on everyone for anything. The program removed some "red tape" to make it easier for agents to do their jobs. The program has strict guidelines that must be followed. Like someone has stated many times on this thread, the government has been, and will always be, monitoring your calls. If you want a private conversation, meet up face to face.

[crx81]

Originally Posted by fire735

What it is doing today is protecting your ass, like it or not.

Not as much or with nearly the vigor that they are protecting their own interests. If you think they give a flying $@#@#& about you or me, you are seriously delusional. And yes, if "protecting" me means stripping me and the rest of America of our freedoms, then you're right, I don't like it.

Originally Posted by fire735

Not since 9-11-2001 has this country been attacked (so they're doing one hellova job IMHO).

With how easy an attack would be, what you call a "hellova job" I call highly suspicious.

Originally Posted by fire735

BTW... this program was not a blank check to listen in on everyone for anything. The program removed some "red tape" to make it easier for agents to do their jobs. The program has strict guidelines that must be followed. Like someone has stated many times on this thread, the government has been, and will always be, monitoring your calls. If you want a private conversation, meet up face to face.

Hmmmm... so first you defend it because they are under strict guidelines, then you openly admit that our government is involved in illegal activity. That's funny. I'm glad I can rely on those strict guidelines! If the local police department was involved in corruption and illegal activities, there would be such a public outcry that there would be a full blown investigation which would result in resignations, terminations, and possibly prosecution and/or litigation (in other words, lots of "tions"!), but it's common knowledge that the federal government is corrupt and involved in illegal activity (especially this current administration), and no one cares, and even defends them. Hmmmm... sudenly patriotism means backing your elected criminal no matter what.

[BusaDave]

Originally Posted by fire735

You can bash the current administration all you want, but the fact remains that the libs gave the administration the authority to do what it is doing today.

Bash?

Can you please cite what legislation authorizes wire taps without a warrant? Did the judge in the case rule against standing legislation or the unconstitutional use of Executive Privledge?

What it is doing today is protecting your ass, like it or not. Not since 9-11-2001 has this country been attacked (so they're doing one hellova job IMHO).

How long BEFORE 9-11-2001 had it been since we were attacked? Were they doin' a hellova job too?

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by fire735

Since terroristic acts are generally commited against people (groups in public places), the government is required to "protect" us. Home invasions are commited against a family. YOU are responsible for your OWN personal safety on your property. The government is not required to protect you in your own home, against the common criminal.

This doesn't make any sense. The World Trade Center was full of private offices (for example.) Are you sure this is how you rationalize taking away personal liberties?

[crx81]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

This doesn't make any sense. The World Trade Center was full of private offices (for example.) Are you sure this is how you rationalize taking away personal liberties?

Oh CRAP! Me and Jim are in agreement about something!

[jim schmidt]

Originally Posted by crx81

Oh CRAP! Me and Jim are in agreement about something!

You're growing up, son.

[crx81]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

You're growing up, son.

Yeah, between this one and the "not my president" thread, I'm getting concerned!

[hanglowejohnson]

Originally Posted by jk750

I'm just saying don't look at this as a conservative/liberal agenda thing.

Never did... I look at it as a "governmental" thing


However, I'll point my crooked, bony finger at Bush and his cronies a lot faster than anyone else because... their party (actually let me rephrase that... most of their party, becauase as we know the support in the republican party is splintering so say the least) STILL refuses to believe they are or have done ANYTHING wrong

Busa, CRX, JIM-- all well said....It continues to astound me that people are so complacent because you "shouldnt be worried if you arent doing anythign wrong" or "they are protecting us"....

Scary

[sexyicecold]

This goes back to the V for Vendetta thread. The government should be afraid of its people, not the other way around. We must not let our government go unchecked. To allow them this kind of power is a step in the wrong direction. There is absolutely no reason for them to wire tap me, check my online activity, etc. Not to mention this was all done illegally. The fact that someone is standing up to our government and telling them what they are doing is wrong and illegal should be applauded. Are these not the same qualities most of us were lauding in the other thread? To not let our government treat us like mice in a cage?

Hooray for the ACLU and the judge who made this decision. If you don't value your freedoms, privacy and civil liberties, and are willing to let the government have their thumb ever-pressed upon you, then their are other countries that are more suited to your tastes - I'm thinking of places like Argentina under Auguste Pinochet, Venezuela, Thailand, a number of middle eastern countries, China. Take your pick.