A little mature discussion in the P&R board? Say it isn't so.

[bush]

I figured it's about time for an actual discussion in here. If you're the usual pundit or extreme right/left windbag, read no furthur and go back to the Israel threads. Your words of wisdom are better suited to racial discussion and whether or not WW3 is starting due to GW's ignorance, the liberals' bitching, or Bob Dole's flacid pecker.

Anyway, I recently was talking with an acquaintance who lives in London. Somehow the discussion progressed to firearms, and how the right to bear arms isn't really needed by people in Britain. The usual excuses followed, akin to "people would hurt themselves" or "only criminals need guns." I asked if he knew exactly why American citizens were granted this right, and he vaguely mentioned the US Constitution. For those of you unfamiliar with the Second Amendment:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I'm going to have to warn those of you actually reading this (instead of reading the first seven words and posting an opinionated flamebait reply) that this is going to be more of a rant than anything, but I'm also interested on how some of you perceive this. This applies to any board members living in any country. I'd like to hear what people of other nationalities think.

Reading the second amendment again triggered some deep thought on my part, and I realized exactly what it meant. An armed citizen is a far greater threat to any corrupt politician than the army of any nation on the face of the planet. It's evident in the history of our country. An army of the people rises against oppression, fighting for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Somehow our forefathers managed to succeed in this endeavor. The end result after 230 years is one of the most powerful nations in the world and one of the greatest places to live in terms of personal freedoms (note that I said one of the greatest, not the greatest).

So much has changed since that piece of paper was signed, yet that second amendment sticks with me for some reason. Is it the feeling of real freedom I get when I realize that I have the right, as a citizen, to legally own, carry, and use an object that is so easily converted into a device for harm? Not only to do so, but knowing full well that the basis for this right is to protect myself from an oppressive government, an invading enemy force, or the threat of harm from a fellow citizen? When this finds its way through my head as I'm target shooting at the range, I ask myself what I would do to keep these rights. Does anybody else get the feeling of real tangible freedom when they realize the rights they've been given, gun owner or not?

Think of the nations that oppress the citizens, deny them the right to arms, the nations that deny them the right to a free press, free assembly and free speech. Now understand what you American citizens have been given, and how it changed the lives of millions of people in this country over the last 230 years. Do you feel honored?

Now here's where my rant gets interesting. How many of you are willing to die so that following generations of American citizens can enjoy the same rights that your ancestors did? The same rights that my great(x8)-grandparents were given when they got off the boat from Germany in the 1840s. I'm not talking about fighting terrorism, fighting Syria or Iran or North Korea or Iraq. Hell, I'm not even talking about the armed forces. If the very freedoms of the people were threatened, either by invading armies, corrupt government, or a political unravelling, how many of you would risk your life to ensure the freedom of your children and grandchildren? If it were up to you to maintain the rights of the people, what would you do? If the Union were threatened in any way, where would you stand?

I realize that members from other nations really can't provide more than opinions on the matter, but I'll welcome that to the table.

[clevis pin]

Many have tried to twist the intent of the founding fathers on this amendment to only mean militia for the protection of the homeland from invasions. If you read the Federalist Papers and the writings of these brave men, you will see that the intent is to keep the populace armed to protect them from their own government. Remember, the revolution was against an existing establishment in the Colonies. That establishment was backed by the arms of England.

Yes, I would die for the pure/true believes stated in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. To a fault, I am an idealist. But, it's my fault and I am happy knowing that I will NEVER sell out or compromise those ideals for any body or any thing.

[bush]

Originally Posted by clevis pin

Many have tried to twist the intent of the founding fathers on this amendment to only mean militia for the protection of the homeland from invasions. If you read the Federalist Papers and the writings of these brave men, you will see that the intent is to keep the populace armed to protect them from their own government. Remember, the revolution was against an existing establishment in the Colonies. That establishment was backed by the arms of England.

Yes, I would die for the pure/true believes stated in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution. To a fault, I am an idealist. But, it's my fault and I am happy knowing that I will NEVER sell out or compromise those ideals for any body or any thing.

Excellent response. I actually have the Federalist Papers printed out in a notebook somewhere. It's good to know that there's somebody else that isn't ignorant (or indifferent) when it comes to their rights.

[Sibling]

If you want a better example ask all the people in Poland when Germany took away their guns before they were invaded. The first step to taking over a country is disarming its people.

[dartsum]

Originally Posted by Sibling

If you want a better example ask all the people in Poland when Germany took away their guns before they were invaded. The first step to taking over a country is disarming its people.

Ya, Hybrid posted a good read about this awhile ago. Here's the Link

[gngsquared]

Originally Posted by Sibling

If you want a better example ask all the people in Poland when Germany took away their guns before they were invaded. The first step to taking over a country is disarming its people.

They disarmed the Poles before they invaded?

The Poles, much like the French, Belgians, English, etc. were beaten because they were still fighting the last great war. Germany upped the ante with the use of combined arms such as arty, armor, air, and rapid infantry movements. In three months they conquered five countries. The last great Polish military offensive was a cavalry charge, brave as hell but destined to failure.

After they took over the Germans were very efficient at rounding up arms and people.

The first step for 'your' government to take control is to confiscate the arms in private hands.

Molon Labe!

[Sibling]

*shrugs* I dunno someone else can tell it better since the only history I was taught in U.S. public school was... well U.S. History.

[gngsquared]

Originally Posted by Sibling

*shrugs* I dunno someone else can tell it better since the only history I was taught in U.S. public school was... well U.S. History.

And there is the problem, not your fault.

Poland was invaded by the Germans in response to a trumped up charge that the Poles had crossed the border and attacked a radio station that was broadcasting Nazi propoganda into Poland. The station was in fact damaged by the Germans in order to justify their charges and in hopes that the nations allied with Poland would not act. However, as soon as the Germans crossed the border and attacked, the UK, France, and the other allies of Poland declared their intention to back Poland and the War was on.

There was significant 'fifth column' activity in Poland, and upon the surrender to the Germans they were able to identify the resistance leaders and those that may have have arms and round them up. There was not a German led confiscation of arms in Poland before they invaded.

Molon Labe!

[gngsquared]

It is nice to think that if push came to shove the American people would rise up on their hind legs and have a 'Red Dawn' moment. But, it just isn't going to happen.

We can not get over 51% of the population to vote in a President election. We can't stand united when 3000 of our citizens are murdered for more than the time it took to get the photo op. We are being invaded, today, by people who have no intention of joining the 'American Experience' and we can't even discuss the problem without calling each other names. As long as the party is going on, and most of the sheep are fat and happy, who cares.

The likes of men such as Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, etc. are no more and the grand experiment they called The United States is changed forever from their design.

[jim schmidt]

Everyone in Iraq had guns under Saddam. They had them under us. If you imagine for one second that the 4th Avenue Militia would last the afternoon against the U.S. Army then guess again.

Even if the NRA's tortured vision of the 2nd Amendment was correct, it's practical protections are nil.

[gngsquared]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

Even if the NRA's tortured vision of the 2nd Amendment was correct, it's practical protections are nil.

What is your interpretation of the 2A?

[bush]

This thread's purpse isn't to question what would happen, or who would win. It's questioning whether or not anybody realizes how lucky they are and what they would do to provide the same for future generations.

I don't care who would win the next American Civil War. I want to know who's willing to stand up for their rights and what it means to you.

[Project_2501]

Originally Posted by gngsquared

They disarmed the Poles before they invaded?

The Poles, much like the French, Belgians, English, etc. were beaten because they were still fighting the last great war. Germany upped the ante with the use of combined arms such as arty, armor, air, and rapid infantry movements. In three months they conquered five countries. The last great Polish military offensive was a cavalry charge, brave as hell but destined to failure.

After they took over the Germans were very efficient at rounding up arms and people.

The first step for 'your' government to take control is to confiscate the arms in private hands.

Molon Labe!

Yeah, the poles got own3d in WWII. They fell in 28 days (I believe it was this) to Nazi Germany...

[bush]

I find it sad that King Cobra's conspiracy threads get more discussion than this. Jim, you were right, P&R isn't what it used to be.