White Collar Crime vs. Street Crime

[bugeyed]

Originally Posted by Drifter

I wanted to add one more thing. As much as I detest seeing a third of my paycheck disappearing into the void of the federal government, I do understand that some of that money is being used to provide healthcare to those who cannot provide for themselves. I have no problem with this; as a healthy, hard-working American, I feel it's my obligation to support those Americans who are struggling to support themselves.

Sorry to jack your thread, Snigg. Now... back on topic -

While I also don't have a problem with tax money going to help people who need it, most of that money you pay in taxes are going to pay the interest on national debt, money borrowed by government from central banks, which are privately owned. These private banks create this debt out of thin air, loan it to government, then demand it back with interest. The money that pays the interest comes from you taxes, or liquidation of assets (such as American ports, land). It is a huge fraud. Government services are largely financed by debt, not taxes, and the IRS is essentially a collection agency for private bankers.

[hanglowejohnson]

Originally Posted by bugeyed

While I also don't have a problem with tax money going to help people who need it, most of that money you pay in taxes are going to pay the interest on national debt, money borrowed by government from central banks, which are privately owned. These private banks create this debt out of thin air, loan it to government, then demand it back with interest. The money that pays the interest comes from you taxes, or liquidation of assets (such as American ports, land). It is a huge fraud. Government services are largely financed by debt, not taxes, and the IRS is essentially a collection agency for private bankers.

I think you are slightly misinformed, or I am confusing how you are presenting it, but the interest/payments arent really going to our countries own private banks. They/it is going to other countries, mostly in southeast Asia, ie China.

While the ultra rich may benefit from it, because the debt is being formulated to fight a pretend war (which pads the pockets of companies like Haliburton), they are actually paying just as steep a price as we all are because we all live in a doomed country. They are just enjoying their time here a bit more than the rest of us.


Although, I guess it could be summed up as being funneled from China, to private banks, which then "loan" the money to the government... But the fact is China is where we owe our money to, not our own private system.

I believe the number I have quoted in the past was EACH AMERICAN owes approx $10,000-$15,000 to China.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by bzbatl

Big surprise here, a supporter of socialized healthcare. How bout all the illegal immigrants that are taking advantage of the system too? Do you feel good about that? There are children dying in Africa, why don't you help them too?

Fine for HELPING others. I applaud that. But that's not what this is about. This is about those that feel ENTITLED to health care, or retirement, or anything and everything that "someone else has" or the "evil rich" have... just because they exist. That's a bunch of crap, and you should feel more than detest at the way our tax money is spent, especially in the arena of healthcare provisioning.

Slow down and read what's written before spouting off. My comment stated that I feel every American has a right to healthcare. Last time I checked, illegal immigrants and dying African children were not Americans.

Let me paint a little picture to help illustrate my point. You and your friends are out and about on Thursday night looking for a good time when you pass a homeless person. Dude doesn't ask for anything, and you go out of your way to avoid making eye contact with him. Seconds later, you hear something and turn around to find him on his knees, clutching his chest; he's having a heart attack. Unfortunately, since he doesn't have health insurance and his fellow countrymen refuse to step up to the plate to help out, he'll lay there on the sidewalk until he dies. Dumb motherfucker should have had health care, right? At this point the 95-year old man who picks bodies up off the streets for $20.00/corpse - who, coincidentally is only working because his retirement fund was depleted by an on-line scammer - comes by to collect him up.

If the United States operated in the way you seem to think it should, the above scenario would not be uncommon -

[bugeyed]

Originally Posted by hanglowejohnson

I think you are slightly misinformed, or I am confusing how you are presenting it, but the interest/payments arent really going to our countries own private banks. They/it is going to other countries, mostly in southeast Asia, ie China.
.

The money to buy those treasuries, whether in China, or US, is sourced originally from the central banks, and must be paid back to the central banks with interest. The treasuries China holds are mostly held by their central bank as reserves, which uses the same principles of money creation the US federal reserve uses, it is created out of thin air. China's bank, People's Bank of China has been member of Bank of International Settlement since 1996.

Major holders of US treasuries are seen here...

http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

Your taxes are still going to pay interest on these created debts, not for government services. The government's right to collect tax payment from you is in a sense their collateral to those banks for the money they have borrowed from them. (or, more accurately, for the money that was created out of thin air by tapping on a keyboard in a bank office somewhere).

Originally Posted by hanglowejohnson

While the ultra rich may benefit from it, because the debt is being formulated to fight a pretend war (which pads the pockets of companies like Haliburton), they are actually paying just as steep a price as we all are because we all live in a doomed country. They are just enjoying their time here a bit more than the rest of us.

.

If we are talking about the same rich people, the price these rich are paying is nothing because they create money from nothing. It has been this way since Nixon removed the dollar from the Gold standard in 1971 (done at the time since gold coffers were being drained as other countries knew very well that the paper dollar was being debased to pay for the Vietnam war. They began demanding gold in lieu of dollars for international settlement. Much the same analogy applies today with Iraq war, except today the dollar is not on the gold standard). To these people, money is only a tool, not an end. The banking system with its money creation apparatuses are merely instruments used to retain positions of power and privilege over everyone else.

Originally Posted by hanglowejohnson

Although, I guess it could be summed up as being funneled from China, to private banks, which then "loan" the money to the government... But the fact is China is where we owe our money to, not our own private system.

I believe the number I have quoted in the past was EACH AMERICAN owes approx $10,000-$15,000 to China.

Americans owe much more than that when you factor the entire international banking system as a whole.

The bottom line is your tax money is not going to pay for government services, and as the debt to these bankers increase, you will see less and less of those services (what little are left anyway) while seeing a simultaneous increase in taxes at all levels of government. You are also seeing a degradation of property rights as government moves to remove barriers to seizing and liquidating people's property (note US Supreme Court decision Kelo vs New London) so they can pay their money creating creditors.

[BusaDave]

Originally Posted by bugeyed

White collared crime is a very serious problem, much more so than street crime.

Yet most people would probably say it is not. The problem with this kind of crime is that it undermines the underlying premises of capitalism. To the point it becomes obvious that you can play by the rules with a belief that you can get ahead, only to find a lifetime of work and promises of security destroyed while your fellow citizens fall into more blame of the victims, you impact the overall economy by destroying trust.

Since when did promised pension and retirement plans become "entitlement programs"? Even more, why would one NOT feel entitled to fair and responsible use of their money and fulfillment of associated committments?

[Drifter]

Just wanted to say that this has been one of the most interesting threads I've read on this board in quite some time, likely due to the fact it hits home with all of us.

Good thread, Snigg -

[BusaDave]

Originally Posted by bzbatl

That's a bunch of crap, and you should feel more than detest at the way our tax money is spent, especially in the arena of healthcare provisioning.

That sounds incredibly like your own opinion, and not a particularly enlightened one to me. Multiple repetitions of claims like "bunch of crap" don't constitute much of an argument beyond a pretty obvious indication of the futility of arguing with it.

[hanglowejohnson]

Originally Posted by bugeyed

Your taxes are still going to pay interest on these created debts, not for government services.

I couldnt agree more.


Regardless of semantics THAT is the true point.


*EDIT* and now that I think of it... Where else would the money be going...?? We CONTINUE to cut programs and benefits (regardless of whether I agree or disagree with those cuts, they are still happening) yet our taxes stay the same or rise (except for the rich of course ) HHMM wonder how that happens... oh yah... our government asks for a few billion fucking dollars every other month!!!

IF our money was going where it SHOULD be instead of paying on interest, we wouldnt have 1% of the discussions we do in here regarding governmental programs because we would have so much excess revenue to utilize for them.

[snigg]

Originally Posted by bzbatl

Whoa what? You're reading the wrong statistics then, bud.

well i do agree that property crimes are quite a bit more rampant than violent crimes, however i think when most people think of "street crime" they tend to think of violent crime. all the examples used in this thread were from people saying "id rather have someone steal from me over the net than have a crackhead stab me." so my previous posts were just letting them know that the chance of being a victim of a violent crime is slim to none. while i agree that it could be a pain in the ass getting your car broken into, i dont think that tops the list of a persons fears of crime. i think we are all in agreement that we'd rather have our car broken into than be the victim of a violent crime or a have our pension taken from us.

[sexyicecold]

I feel more threatened by white collar crime because I see it at my job constantly. And often, as someone pointed out, it cannot be prosecuted because people do it "legally." They become their grandparent's power of attorney and wipe out their savings accounts, receive their Social Security checks as representative payee, sell their granparents' home, keep the profit from the sale, and provide the grandparent with meager living conditions. It is deplorable that people would do this to their own family members. Then there are corporate assholes, small-time scammers, hackers, etc. The proliferation of white collar crime is not just the identity theft you hear about on the 6 o'clock news. Fraud is occuring all the time and unfortunately, people commit it "legally."

[bzbatl]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Slow down and read what's written before spouting off. My comment stated that I feel every American has a right to healthcare. Last time I checked, illegal immigrants and dying African children were not Americans.

I have a pretty high comprehension rate, actually. What I was doing was called the snowball effect.

Why does everyone have the RIGHT to healthcare? That's just not an inalienable right - whether it's an American, or an African, or a Chinese. Does everyone have the right to housing? A car? Why would you think that way? Where does it stop that things that are of a distinct monetary value become inalienable rights? The manta is: I do it myself or I pay for someone else to do it.

If you take this to the extreme, everyone has the right to not get cancer. Well that doesn't matter in your version, because the government will pay for you to try to cure it, even if you can't. But then, the government doesn't actually have any money. They have taxpayers' money. So the taxpayers (some of who buy health insurance, or - "heaven forbid!!!" - pay out of pocket for healthcare) are the ones footing the bills. This is extended to illegal immigrants, just because they are here, and they exist.

Charity is acceptable. Helping those in need is acceptable. Giving people a free ride because they didn't do it for themselves is not. So if you care about giving those that don't bother to work for things they need (or want in these cases) why not extend that to everyone in the world? Or do you only care about those that have an American citizenship?

Originally Posted by Drifter

Let me paint a little picture to help illustrate my point. You and your friends are out and about on Thursday night looking for a good time when you pass a homeless person. Dude doesn't ask for anything, and you go out of your way to avoid making eye contact with him. Seconds later, you hear something and turn around to find him on his knees, clutching his chest; he's having a heart attack. Unfortunately, since he doesn't have health insurance and his fellow countrymen refuse to step up to the plate to help out, he'll lay there on the sidewalk until he dies. Dumb motherfucker should have had health care, right? At this point the 95-year old man who picks bodies up off the streets for $20.00/corpse - who, coincidentally is only working because his retirement fund was depleted by an on-line scammer - comes by to collect him up.

Hey, old man's got a job - he can pay for his healthcare, at least to some point. Why didn't the bum do the same?

Originally Posted by Drifter

If the United States operated in the way you seem to think it should, the above scenario would not be uncommon -

Ugh. Useless fear mongering never helps. Just like how when the government legalizes drugs everyone is going to be useless vegetables - no, that really won't happen.

When they lifted Prohibition, the entire nation was "OH MY GOD WE'RE ALL GOING TO BECOME DRUNKS!" No, that didn't happen.

When they started handing out concealed weapons permits, the states that had them sensationalized "EVERYONE'S GONNA BE STRAPPED - PROTECT YOUR KIDS!" Hi, may I be the first to welcome everyone to reality.

When you force the great people of this nation to be personally responsible for themselves, who knows, maybe we'll all be educated, productive members of society.

[bugeyed]

Originally Posted by hanglowejohnson

*EDIT* and now that I think of it... Where else would the money be going...?? We CONTINUE to cut programs and benefits (regardless of whether I agree or disagree with those cuts, they are still happening) yet our taxes stay the same or rise (except for the rich of course ) HHMM wonder how that happens... oh yah... our government asks for a few billion fucking dollars every other month!!!

Bingo. This is nothing new really, this kind of debt /Structural adjustment policy has been used to impoverish 3rd world countries for years, you loan a 3rd world tin pot dictator a bunch of money which he uses to enrich himself, and the average person living in the country who had no say in the matter end up paying for it. Otherwise those countries went into default and their national assets were liquidated. It was win-win for the loan sharks and lose-lose for everyone else. What goes around comes around and I guess it is our turn. Taxes are going up, but your government services are being scaled back. The money is going somewhere, it's not going back to you. The sad thing about it is we are all being charged for someone elses debt, the monies of which were borrowed from someone else who created it out of thin air.

Sounds like a white collared crime to me.

[bzbatl]

Originally Posted by sexyicecold

I feel more threatened by white collar crime because I see it at my job constantly. And often, as someone pointed out, it cannot be prosecuted because people do it "legally." They become their grandparent's power of attorney and wipe out their savings accounts, receive their Social Security checks as representative payee, sell their granparents' home, keep the profit from the sale, and provide the grandparent with meager living conditions. It is deplorable that people would do this to their own family members. Then there are corporate assholes, small-time scammers, hackers, etc. The proliferation of white collar crime is not just the identity theft you hear about on the 6 o'clock news. Fraud is occuring all the time and unfortunately, people commit it "legally."

This is true - I'm witness to ethics violations happening in my workplace just about daily. They're always so borderline that no one could really get fired over it... most can be talked out of with BS reasoning.

In this day, though, if you just take the identity theft portion - that could be a direct result of the street crime. Wallet gets stolen, car broken into, whatever - thieves have your personal data and then get whatever they want in the white collar crime.

It seems everyone has a different defining threat in their lives. Whereas mine is simply physical, as I've generally taken pretty good steps to protect myself otherwise from identity theft, fraud, corporate monkey-business, and other white collar crimes. I've also take precautions against street crimes - but bodily harm and property damage (not to mention the emotional state of my wife around security issues) strikes me as more threatening than losing money or dealing with hassles like calling customer-no