The Origin of All Things "Evolved"

[hybrid]

Hmmmmmmmmm...............

I also remember reading something about a literal translation to the curan (I think I spelled that correctly)

Im pretty sure that based off what it said, that the Islamic religion is based off robbing, killing and plundering.

Hang tight Ill try to find the stuff and put some of the info on here

[bzbatl]

Originally Posted by sungwei

Why do you keep referring to invisidble wizards? Islam has nothing to do with that. So apprently what you studied in school was not of the truth. You would not have that interpretation of Islam or any religion for that matter if you studied carefully.

It's just a little dig at the thought of "God". In layman's terms, a god is an invisible wizard. You know, wizards that can create anything without any real explanation other than magic and/or faith?

Example: "Allah" created earth and man. Ok. How? Your response will be able to be completed by only a wizard. And an invisible one at that.

Asking the question "Who created God?" is an infinite question. If someone could answer that, then you would reply, "Well then who created that God?" The question goes on forever. It's not as if the question could be answered you would be convinced of Gods existence.

No, it isn't. It's yet again a dig at the ridiculous hypocracy of declaring one entity as finite and not being able to explain WHY.

Here's another one: Why would your God allow all the Hindu and Buddhist gods to exist? They fully believe their gods exist, just as you believe only yours does. You don't know any better than they do - it's all based on faith and not fact or evidence.

Simply by asking, "Who created God?" How does that disprove or prove anything? It's a common point brought up by atheist. I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with it.

Point is, it's a stretch to believe in a single god, with the advances that humans have made in logical thinking, scientific methods, and presenting evidence through experimentation.

But even I don't KNOW that, definently. Because I can't prove that there ISN'T a god. Hence, I am agnostic, not atheist.

As a Muslim we believe God is beyond comprehension.

Humans came up with gods to explain the unexplainable. They believed at one point that gods made lightning. Gods control weather. Gods produced good crops. Gods allowed you to be happy.

We know better about these things. Some still believe that chanting and hocus pocus will make you medically better. Some don't believe in pharmeceuticals. Some will never believe anything but what they were indoctrinated into growing up.

If someone were able to prove evolution by accellerating the mutation process and actually created some sort of creature from single celled organisms... would you believe in a single god anymore?

Keep in mind every Sheik, Imam that I have spoken closely to has denounced the violence brought about by the cartoons. It was spoken to us at every Friday prayer for over a month to NOT act violently. So please try to see that TV and Media is bias and filtered information. And separate people from religion.

Yep, I'm sure they have. But that's akin to the following example:

I punch a bunch of people in the nuts. Instead of publicly apologizing to the families, I apologize to a couple of people in a bar that I'm acquainted with.

To date, *I* have never heard of a mass public denouncement of the actions of the extremists. Your Sheiks and Imams need to get together and do something about your "little" problem.

Why don't you call 1 877 WHY ISLAM? Or check out the site I gave you? What is the harm? I'm courteously inviting you to find more information. Be fair, be objective. Will you die believing that you are nothing more than a mere accident?

The harm is an incredible waste of my valuable time. But other than that, I guess nothing.

Why would I be fair and objective? You're not. Try leading by example. We're having a debate here; you aren't supposed to understand my side of it any more than I do yours. However, I have done PLENTY of reading on Islam, Christianity, Taoist, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Mormonism. I'm no scholar on any of them, but I know enough about their principles and can equally compare and contrast any of them. One day the Scientology weirdos will pique my interest and I'll read about it.

I wasn't an accident. My parents planned me. Maybe you were an accident, but not me

I am able to trace my roots to the early 1100s, due to the research of my father and uncles. That's pretty far back, and one day I will continue that research and get even further back. I find that vastly more important to understanding where I'm from and what made me than believing a bunch of men that believes infidels should be killed, women should be servants, and I was born into servitude of an invisible wizard.

[hybrid]

Qur’an:9:88 “The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.”
Qur’an:9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an:9:112 “The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”
Qur’an:9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.”
Ishaq:325 “Muslims, fight in Allah’s Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious.”
Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Ishaq:324 “He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.’”
Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”
Ishaq:300 “I am fighting in Allah’s service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah’s war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good.”
Ishaq:587 “Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace.”
Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”
Ishaq:326 “Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty good fighters they will defeat two hundred for they are a senseless people. They do not fight with good intentions nor for truth.”
Bukhari:V4B52N63 “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Allah’s Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first?’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam first and then fight.’ So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A Little work, but a great reward.’”
Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4668 “The Messenger said: ‘Anybody who equips a warrior going to fight in the Way of Allah is like one who actually fights. And anybody who looks after his family in his absence is also like one who actually fights.”
Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an:8:72 “Those who accepted Islam and left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause with their possessions and persons, and those who gave (them) asylum, aid, and shelter, those who harbored them—these are allies of one another. You are not responsible for protecting those who embraced Islam but did not leave their homes [to fight] until they do so.” [Another translation reads:] “You are only called to protect Muslims who fight.”
Muslim:C9B1N31 “I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify to the fact that there is no god but Allah, and believe in me (that) I am the Messenger and in all that I have brought.”
Bukhari:V9B84N59 “Whoever says this will save his property and life from me.’”
Qur’an:8:73 “The unbelieving infidels are allies. Unless you (Muslims) aid each other (fighting as one united block to make Allah’s religion victorious), there will be confusion and mischief. Those who accepted Islam, left their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause (al-Jihad), as well as those who give them asylum, shelter, and aid—these are (all) Believers: for them is pardon and bountiful provision (in Paradise).”
Tabari IX:69 “Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah’s helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing him is a small matter to us.”
Qur’an:48:16 “Say (Muhammad) to the wandering desert Arabs who lagged behind: ‘You shall be invited to fight against a people given to war with mighty prowess. You shall fight them until they surrender and submit. If you obey, Allah will grant you a reward, but if you turn back, as you did before, He will punish you with a grievous torture.”
Qur’an:48:22 “If the unbelieving infidels fight against you, they will retreat. (Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah in the past: no change will you find in the ways of Allah.”
Qur’an:47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Qur’an:47:31 “And We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters.”
Tabari VI:138 “Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.”
Tabari VI:139 “Allah had given his Messenger permission to fight by revealing the verse ‘And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.’”
Qur’an:9:19 “Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Mosque, equal to those who fight in the Cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. Those who believe, and left their homes, striving with might, fighting in Allah’s Cause with their goods and their lives, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah.”
Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”
Qur’an:5:94 “Believers, Allah will make a test for you in the form of a little game in which you reach out for your lances. Any who fails this test will have a grievous punishment.”
Ishaq:578 “Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet’s fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory.”
Tabari IX:22 “The Prophet continued to besiege the town, fighting them bitterly.”
Tabari IX:25 “By Allah, I did not come to fight for nothing. I wanted a victory over Ta’if so that I might obtain a slave girl from them and make her pregnant.”
Tabari IX:82 “The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”
Tabari IX:88 “Abdallah Azdi came to the Messenger, embraced Islam, and became a good Muslim. Allah’s Apostle invested Azdi with the authority over those who had surrendered and ordered him to fight the infidels from the tribes of Yemen. Azdi left with an army by the Messenger’s command. The Muslims besieged them for a month. Then they withdrew, setting a trap. When the Yemenites went in pursuit, Azdi was able to inflict a heavy loss on them.”
Ishaq:530 “Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with the Apostle. Lord, I believe in his word. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends.”
Muslim:C9B1N29 “Command For Fighting Against People So Long As They Do Not Profess That There Is No Ilah (God) But Allah And Muhammad Is His Messenger: When the Messenger breathed his last and Bakr was appointed Caliph, many Arabs chose to become apostates [rejected Islam]. Abu Bakr said: ‘I will definitely fight against anyone who stops paying the Zakat tax, for it is an obligation. I will fight against them even to secure the cord used for hobbling the feet of a camel which they used to pay if they withhold it now.’ Allah had justified fighting against those who refused to pay Zakat.”
Muslim:C9B1N33 “The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.’”
Muslim:C10B1N176 “Muhammad (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: ‘There is no god but Allah,’ but I attacked him with a spear anyway. It once occurred to me that I should ask the Apostle about this. The Messenger said: ‘Did he profess “There is no god but Allah,” and even then you killed him?’ I said: ‘He made a profession out of the fear of the weapon I was threatening him with.’ The Prophet said: ‘Did you tear out his heart in order to find out whether it had professed truly or not?’”
Muslim:C20B1N4597 “The Prophet said at the conquest of Mecca: ‘There is no migration now, but only Jihad, fighting for the Cause of Islam. When you are asked to set out on a Jihad expedition, you should readily do so.’”
Muslim:C28B20N4628 “Allah has undertaken to provide for one who leaves his home to fight for His Cause and to affirm the truth of His word; Allah will either admit him to Paradise or will bring him back home with his reward and booty.”
Muslim:C28B20N4629 “The Messenger said: ‘One who is wounded in the Way of Allah—and Allah knows best who is wounded in His Way—will appear on the Day of Judgment with his wound still bleeding. The color (of its discharge) will be blood, (but) its smell will be musk.’”
Muslim:C34B20N4652-3 “The Merit Of Jihad And Of Keeping Vigilance Over The Enemy: A man came to the Holy Prophet and said: ‘Who is the best of men?’ He replied: ‘A man who fights staking his life and spending his wealth in Allah’s Cause.’”
Muslim:C42B20N4684 “A desert Arab came to the Prophet and said: ‘Messenger, one man fights for the spoils of war; another fights that he may be remembered, and one fights that he may see his (high) position (achieved as a result of his valor in fighting). Which of these is fighting in the Cause of Allah?’ The Messenger of Allah said: ‘Who fights so that the word of Allah is exalted is fighting in the Way of Allah.’”
Muslim:C53B20N4717 “The Prophet said: ‘This religion will continue to exist, and a group of people from the Muslims will continue to fight for its protection until the Hour is established.’”
Bukhari:V5B59N288 “I witnessed a scene that was dearer to me than anything I had ever seen. Aswad came to the Prophet while Muhammad was urging the Muslims to fight the pagans. He said, ‘We shall fight on your right and on your left and in front of you and behind you.’ I saw the face of the Prophet getting bright with happiness, for that saying delighted him.”
Bukhari:V5B59N290 “The believers who did not join the Ghazwa [Islamic raid or invasion] and those who fought are not equal in reward.”
Qur’an:2:193 “Fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers.”
Qur’an:2:217 “They question you concerning fighting in the sacred month. Say: ‘Fighting therein is a grave (matter); but to prevent access to Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, to expel its members, and polytheism are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they make you renegades from your religion. If any of you turn back and die in unbelief, your works will be lost and you will go to Hell. Surely those who believe and leave their homes to fight in Allah’s Cause have the hope of Allah’s mercy.”
Qur’an:2:244 “Fight in Allah’s Cause, and know that Allah hears and knows all.”
Qur’an:2:246 “He said: ‘Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?’ They said: ‘How could we refuse to fight in Allah’s Cause?’”
Ishaq:280 “The Apostle prepared for war in pursuance of Allah’s command to fight his enemies and to fight the infidels who Allah commanded him to fight.”
Qur’an:61:2 “O Muslims, why say one thing and do another? Grievously odious and hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say that which you do not. Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in a battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
Bukhari:V4B52N61 “Allah’s Apostle! We were absent from the first battle you fought against the pagans. If Allah gives us a chance to do battle, no doubt, He will see how bravely we fight.”
Ishaq:398 “Ask them for their help. Thereby make the religion of Islam agreeable to them. And when you are resolved in the matter of religion concerning fighting your enemy you will have the advantage.”
Qur’an:3:146 “How many prophets fought in Allah’s Cause? With them (fought) myriads of godly men who were slain. They never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah’s Cause, nor did they weaken nor give in. Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast [warriors].”
Ishaq:393 “How many prophets has death in battle befallen and how many multitudes with him? They did not show weakness toward their enemies and were not humiliated when they suffered in the fight for Allah and their religion. That is steadfastness. Allah loves the steadfast.”
Qur’an:3:153 “Behold! You ran off precipitately, climbing up the high hill without even casting a side glance at anyone, while the Messenger in your rear is calling you from your rear, urging you to fight. Allah gave you one distress after another by way of requital, to teach you not to grieve for the booty that had escaped you and for (the ill) that had befallen you.”
Qur’an:3:154 “Say: ‘Even if you had remained in your houses, those ordained to be slaughtered would have gone forth to the places where they were to slain.”
Ishaq:440 “Helped by the Holy Spirit we smited Muhammad’s foes. The Apostle sent a message to them with a sharp cutting sword.”
Ishaq:470 “We attacked them fully armed, swords in hand, cutting through heads and skulls.”
Qur’an:61:4 “Surely Allah loves those who fight in His Cause.”
Qur’an:61:11 “Believers, shall I lead you to a bargain or trade that will save you from a painful torment? That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), and that you strive and fight in Allah’s Cause with your property and your lives: That will be best for you!” Qur’an 61:12 “He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Eden: that is indeed the Supreme Achievement. And another (favor) which you love: help from Allah for a speedy victory over your enemies.”
Qur’an:8:5 “Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause, even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse (to fighting).”
Qur’an:24:53 “They swear their strongest oaths saying that if only you would command them. They would leave their homes (and go forth fighting in Allah’s Cause). Say: ‘Swear not; Obedience is (more) reasonable.’”
Qur’an:4:74 “Let those who fight in Allah’s Cause sell this world’s life for the hereafter. To him who fights in Allah’s Cause, whether he is slain or victorious, We shall give him a reward.”
Qur’an:4:75 “What reason have you that you should not fight in Allah’s Cause?” [Another translation says:] “What is wrong with you that you do not fight for Allah?”
Qur’an:4:76 “Those who believe fight in the Cause of Allah.”
Qur’an:4:77 “Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold from fighting, perform the prayer and pay the zakat. But when orders for fighting were issued, a party of them feared men as they ought to have feared Allah. They say: ‘Our Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?’”
Qur’an:4:78 “Wherever you are, death will find you, even if you are in towers strong and high! So what is wrong with these people, that they fail to understand these simple words?”
Qur’an:4:84 “Then fight (Muhammad) in Allah’s Cause. Incite the believers to fight with you.”
Qur’an:4:94 “Believers, when you go abroad to fight wars in Allah’s Cause, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who greets you: ‘You are not a believer!’ Coveting the chance profits of this life (so that you may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils and booty.”
Qur’an:4:95 “Not equal are believers who sit home and receive no hurt and those who fight in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a grade higher to those who fight with their possessions and bodies to those who sit home. Those who fight He has distinguished with a special reward.”
Qur’an:4:100 “He who leaves his home in Allah’s Cause finds abundant resources and many a refuge. Should he die as a refugee for Allah and His Messenger His reward becomes due and sure with Allah. When you travel through the earth there is no blame on you if you curtail your worship for fear unbelievers may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are your enemy.”
Qur’an:4:102 “When you (Prophet) lead them in prayer, let some stand with you, taking their arms with them. When they finish their prostrations, let them take positions in the rear. And let others who have not yet prayed come—taking all precaution, and bearing arms. The Infidels wish, if you were negligent of your arms, to assault you in a rush. But there is no blame on you if you put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because you are ill; but take precaution. For the Unbelieving Infidels Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.”
Qur’an:4:104 “And do not relent in pursuing the enemy.”

[hybrid]

I believe that should be enough of a start to show how fucking sick Islam really is.

Its a religion based on Murder, rape, plunder and hatred.

And the guy who started it was a fucking liar and criminal.

[bzbatl]

Nice one. I'm glad you took the time to find all that, saved me a lot of trouble

[hybrid]

Yeah well I didnt do the hard work. Re finding it was kinda hard but not that bad. Im just glad I didnt have to sit there translating that shit and trying to not vomit.

We all know how much I despise organized religion as it is. Let alone one based on such filth as this one is.

[rawrk]

Getting somewhat back on topic I hope...

I love these kinds of topics, but one must wonder if religion is nothing more then a evolutionary trait that we made up to better cope with a world that was very unknown at the time, and death, which is still unknown since we don’t know what happens =p. As queer as the universe is it would be nice for an easy answer to a great question but all religion does is give someone a false sense of peace of mind. It is a drug like any other drug to better cope with the world we live in… a weakness I guess you could say.

The nice thing about science is that it attempts to answer the unanswerable were in most religions are counterproductive and have the arrogance to claim that they know the answer to a question that is most likely infinite in possibilities. If one can prove that religion is a tool created to help in our evolution, and like so many tools that we have used in the past… we upgrade we change to something better… something that works even better then the last thing. In our fight to survive in this hostile universe reason is just the next step in our adaptation to better manipulate tools and increase our odds at not dieing out.

But even if everything we know about the universe and the world is wrong at lest science is attempting to find it. It might actually just be smarter to not believe in anything and just continue our research blindly in hopes that we might just stumble across more pieces to the great cosmic puzzle.

One final question is if evolution is truly correct in terms of how life evolves on earth… could one say that universe itself is fallowing a similar path of evolution? The big bang => the small building blocks of our current universe => to the larger and so on => to the creation of life. Life was probably bound to happen, and not a random freak occurrence. Also, I fail to see how one does not find beauty in the strangeness of the world we live in.

************************************************************************
And if you do not feel like reading all that… in a nut shell science is trying to find the answer were religion isn’t since it blindly claims to know the answer to a question with seemingly infinite possibilities.
************************************************************************

[hybrid]

At one point, religion may have been about having a theory on life and death and how we came to be.

Now its nothing more than a control tactic.

"Be skeered of the big invisible man that wont let you in his yard to play if you dont pay your friend fees and do as he says!"

Its a fucking sham and it makes me want to vomit.

[Choco]

control and a means of explaining the yet unexplained. So you're a Roman chillin at the local bathhouse and you see the sun. Why is the sun there? Why does it move across the sky? Oh, it must be a God that controls the sun! So on and so on.

maybe science is at fault for the proliferation of agnostics, but only bacause science keeps pointing out the BS that religion keeps spewing forth at masses....some are intelligent enough (with todays education) to form their own opinions, some are not that blessed and subscribe to the "be good or burn forever" theory. frankly, if there is a god, he's way to fuckin busy to be takin notes on how much i flog the dolphin.

moreover, the big bang theory is not yet well defined, it is a theory. with every new piece of evidence scientists uncover, another piece of the puzzle falls into place. problem becomes that that piece of the puzzle fell outside the previously defined boundaries, now the puzzle just got bigger and there's more pieces to then discover.

to say this invisible wizard just snapped his fingers and poof, this genetic masterpiece that is the human body began to walk the earth is complete BS. the idea that we are an accident is much easier for me to accept than creation by magic. scientists have classified life that can live in almost any type of atmospheric/aquatic conditions. humans eveolved because the conditions we enjoy here on earth allow and promote the kind of organisms that dwell this land. however, what is in the deep. there are critters in the deep we have not even seen, yet they exist. just because we cannot see them doesn't mean they don't exist....i.e. life on other planets is possible and probable. once again, the narrowminded human always being the center of the universe, as displayed by christians painting god in their own image.

to other things i'll leave as brian food. Carbon dating, and quantum physics. how far down the rabbit hole ya'll wanna go??