If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above.
You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.
To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
Politics & ReligionWell Since every damn forum has one. Might as well leave it out there. This place is loosely moderated and should not be entered if you're weak of heart.
I mean really how many wars would we have really had?? I mean there are a few that aren't based on religion but a very few. Any thoughts on this?? I am just sitting over here in the middle east and as an agnostic it just baffles me how by faith and faith alone there can be so much distruction. Sitting over here fighting what is basically a religious war and it just makes me wonder.
No I'm on depolyment to fujarra and from here in a month to iraq. i haven't updated my profile. We are part of the new Navy Infantry. Smart ass. South Carolina huh? Military?
I'd say that a large number of wars were/are fought under the guise of religion. But all wars are fought to gain power and control. They can say it's a religious war, but it all comes down to wanting more power and control over a people or region.
Cause whatever John Lennon says is right? Songs dont mean anything except someones opinion.. just like it is this guys opinion to think all these wars are because of religion (personally i think religion is retarded but thats in my opinion)
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by bush
No amount of time saved can make up for looking like an idiot!
I don't know exact numbers, I might do a little research if necessary...
Over the course of written history that we know is fact (how much can you trust written history, anyway?) the majority of wars was over territory, not religion. Unless, perhaps, you're just talking about how many wars the USA has been in, then the only one I can think of other than the current that had anything to do with religion was *maybe* the Revolutionary.
1812, Mexican-American, Civil, Korea, Vietnam... none of them really based on one Judeo-Christian vs another. (Civil War = baptists vs methodists maybe? hah!)
But yeah, over the course of time there've been a lot of damn wars over religion. And since most religions are supposed to teach about how to be "moral", "peaceful", and "just"... it's exceptionally hypocritical.
Revolutionary War = Independence from Great Britain. Colonists already had religious freedom. The freedom to form our own representative government seems to be the primary driver there.
War of 1812 - Defense against Britain again.
Spanish-American War - Purely territorial.
World War I - Germany/Austria started the whole deal by running a land grab in western/southern Europe. The US eventually got pulled in from the sinking of the Lusitania, and a few other factors. No religious undertones there. Even Gavrilo Princip's (Black Hand) assassination of Archduke Ferdinand seemed more economically/socially motivated.
World War II - I guess you could debate this one. We used the Japanese invasion of Pearl Harbor as an excuse to go in. Hitler was certainly persecuting and killing Jews, but alot of his reasons seem to point to economics vs. the whole master race idea. The German people seemed to be more incensed towards violence against Jews as they owned a good proportion of the businesses in Germany, were often high up in the banking sysem, etc. I don't honestly know if the German people themselves bought the whole Aryan deal off the bat, or they used it as a "justifiable" excuse for their actions. I tend to look at this one as more economic than religious...otherwise we wouldn't have ridden the fence so long before entering the war.
Korea - no religion there.
Vietnam - Again no religion. I tend to look at that whole war as a way in which the government got the country out of a recession. The fight against communism seems to be the reason the government gives to justify its actions.
Grenada - not really a war, and not religiously motivated.
Gulf War I - No religion there.
Gulf War II/Afghanistan - I guess I question if this is religiously motivated. I know some folks are going to jump to conclusions such as oil, Haliburton contracts, etc. That's all speculation. If you look at the facts though, I really think we confronted the Taliban for harboring bin Laden. Had they been a bunch of communal agnostics, I think we would have done the same thing. Whether you're dealing with religious zealots here, or communist wackjobs (FARC) in Columbia, I think you can make the case more for security than you can a Christian vs. Muslim war. Especially because I don't look at the US as a truly Christian nation. Sure, the majority are baptized under some form of Christianity, but the # that actually are devout practitioners of it is another story altogether.
To answer your initial question, I do think that a combination of religion and economic power contributed to many wars in the past. Especially since you could really consider the Church of old to be an almost universal governing body controlling or influencing many of the monarchies of Europe. But as the mainstream Christian of today has drifted away from hard-line or traditional religion, I think this has become less the norm. I tend to think that most of the conflicts that the industrialized nations enter into are economical in some way, shape, or form. Conflicts in Africa have this as an initial motivator, but they use ethnic hatred to fuel the conflict; it still only benefits a few individuals at the top. Just goes to show you what a group of uneducated people can be convinced to do.
Dang thanks Triple Z! I wasn't sure about all those wars but I know like you said the churches of old used to be pretty much the government so those i would agree with you on. But I personally think that if it wasn't for 9/11 we wouldn't be here in this war. And to me that was strictly religiously motivated, because of what happened in the Gulf War with Bin Laden. But being over here you have to understand these people they think of us as dogs, as a lower then human race. And that and all of this craziness is based on their religion. because if it weren't for these people's fucked up beliefs we would have people blowing themselves up and actually thinking they are going to a place filled with virgins And to really get a refresher just go to ogrish and look at that crap on there. And just remember that they are doing this because in some kind of fucked up way they think we are going over there to convert them all to christians.
Crusades...
Iran vs. Iraq...
Israel vs. the rest of the middle east...
The Romans wishing to convert the "pagans" to Christianity
Some (not all) of the conflicts between the conquistadors and the native americans and central american/south american indians
Now...I'm not saying that religion WAS (or is) the reason for ANY of these conflicts, but...it was the excuse that the aggressors have used in many of the wars. This debate could go on forever with no right answers, but...whatever your side of the argument is, you must admit that more violence and murder has been performed in the name of religion (in order to gain more territory or power as a "hidden" motive i agree) than for any other cause. Of course, most of the religions are peaceful at their core, but anything which breeds faith to to such an extent has a way of attracting zealots who twist and massage the tenets of their "religions" to fit their own self-serving desires.
Jeez, Triple Z, a link to wikipedia would suffice.
But yeah, the colonists had freedom, but made it a point after the war to express the freedom of religion as a basic human right... so if someone were to TRY to make the case... I'd let that one slip.
Other than the current - don't really think the US has ever been motivated by religion as even a small factor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Crusades...
Iran vs. Iraq...
Israel vs. the rest of the middle east...
The Romans wishing to convert the "pagans" to Christianity
Some (not all) of the conflicts between the conquistadors and the native americans and central american/south american indians
Yes, the Crusades, and any Muslim war pretty much... but you have to remember that the world was warring thousands of years ago in Asian countries. Hundreds of documented wars between Chinese and Mongolians, Japanese, etc. etc.
So short answer - no we wouldn't war less if we were all agnostic
Would we have war if we were all agnostic?
Linear Mode
