Bogus rights

[Jiggly]

Originally Posted by license2ill

Oh, I'm listening, and yes, you are not saying anything different.

actually I could make a decent outline to a paper out of my posts yours however most likely not.

[Jiggly]

just one last thing though

you two would rather sit ther and watch someone have the same life as you while sitting there and buying natureal light with their welfare chacks for the next 20 years while you go to work 8-5 m-f?

Seriousness I actually you know would like an answer to one of the questions I have asked in order to furthur understand your poiunt of view, but none of them have been answered so I have no reason to even consider it.

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by Jiggly

actually I could make a decent outline to a paper out of my posts yours however most likely not.

Haha, oh yeah? I suppose you could get it published too. What would the topic of the paper be?

You should be proud. Those posts were enlightening....when looked at in a context outside of the intended topic.

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by Jiggly

just one last thing though

you two would rather sit ther and watch someone have the same life as you while sitting there and buying natureal light with their welfare chacks for the next 20 years while you go to work 8-5 m-f?

Seriousness I actually you know would like an answer to one of the questions I have asked in order to furthur understand your poiunt of view, but none of them have been answered so I have no reason to even consider it.

Are you still a victim of society with a chip on your shoulder?

[Jiggly]

still not a single response to an honest question, is that because you have no answers? you do not even know the points you are arguing? tell me I am all ears and willing to learn and wanting to understand.

all I get is a smart ass comment to a pharse that the only thing it said is move on to your next point.

[Jiggly]

what makes me a victim of society?
I never said I felt that way. I do feel there are some programs in goverment that need to be changed but I have never felt victimized by any of them

[Triple_Z]

Originally Posted by BigBadBoom

Where is the vaunted charity that conservatives have in spades?

What happened to helping your fellow man?

In my home town where the auto industry is laying off thousands weekly we very rarely get talk like that.

If anyone speaks up with such insensitive crap I remind them of the unemployment benefits afforded to all who fall on bad times.

Maybe its because of where I live that I can understand that even with hard work and dedication sometimes people fall down because of no fault of their own, and without this charity some would not might not be able to get up.

The mark of great society is when they help those within their own ranks up when fallen. This type of selfishness goes away from everthing America claims to be.

Actually, if you read Walter Williams' writing (he does a weekly syndicated column for many newspapers around the country IMO...and has since I started reading one back in my college days), I wouldn't necessarily classify him as conservative. He comes in on both sides of the fence, depending upon the issues. And actually, some of his columns are fairly interesting...and oftentimes controversial to the conservative base that reads much of his writings. If you want an about-face, read Molly Ivins...I personally can't stand her writing, but it's interesting nonetheless.

"Vaunted charity that conservatives have in spades"...well, if you're speaking in context to Williams' point of view, you have to understand that charity involves a "voluntary" gift, meaning it is freely given. Personally, pulling tax money from your paycheck and redistributing it is not charity, not when it's a forced percentage. Gifting money to a church, Katrina victims, the Red Cross, etc., would fall under the "charity" category. Charity allows individuals the ability to control the destination of their funds (to a point depending upon the charitable organization) rather than being told what they will be supporting.

The debate that usually comes up about helping your fellow man is not the existence of unemployment or welfare, but the duration for which it lasts. I've got to go with Jiggly here; it isn't supposed to be a lifestyle. Your average term for unemployment benefits is what, about 6 months? Welfare benefits, if you end up applying for them, can be up to 2 years in some states (which have reformed the laws) or longer in others. 2.5 years to find a job, doing something, anything, is enough time. I'm not suggesting life won't be hard; it will. You may be working two jobs, you may be working weekends, etc. If you know anybody single in the DC area trying to buy his/her first condo (as houses are too damn expensive), ask them how much they're working. You won't have the luxury of a 40-hour week. For some folks, this is a motivator to improve. Others just prefer the daily grind. Others fall out.

The auto industry I won't touch because I'm probably going to hit on a personal note and I'm not looking to go there. But I will state that for the time being, unless they're private contractors, the UAW's Jobs Bank program should hopefully be enough to suffice.

Now, the original debate seems to center around the concept of healthcare as a "right". Jim's point about society dictating rights is correct; things do evolve with time. Prohibition and the repeal of it is a perfect example. However, is healthcare something that every individual has a right to? That's a societal opinion. Personally, I liked the Blue Cross plan I had years ago. I didn't deal with the gateway provider crap, I chose my doctor's as I saw fit, etc. Hell, when I was growing up in the early 80s, you paid cash for prescriptions. Most doctor's office visits costed a paltry sum, but your hospitalization kicked in for those major medical events. But when people started demanding that insurance begin covering the small stuff, the insurance companies acquiesced...and then raised prices. The gov't answer was the HMO...and look where we are now. High prices, lack of choices, and less total coverage.

I think socialized medicine is simply another step towards higher costs and inadequate care. My family has a lot of friends who are doctors/surgeons who are getting out of the business as quickly as possible. The money isn't there, malpractice insurance kills you, and the gov't will dictate what it will pay for certain procedures. Where's the incentive? Helping your fellow man is an honorable concept, but it sure as hell isn't the prime motivator for why I go to work everyday.

To help the ranks of the fallen per se, we do have a social safety net. Mandatory health care doesn't broaden that net, it encompasses it. Universal healthcare will cost....ALOT. Sure you can go with the "bulk purchasing" concept, but the lower prices will be in the short-term. HMOs proved this. To cover this additional cost, you're going to have to take it from businesses and working individuals who already work over 1/3 of the year before they begin paying themselves. Sure the concept of helping everybody is great, but unfortunately that costs $$$. As a working guy watching the Social Security fiasco come to a head, I don't want another hand dipping into my paycheck so that I may get a paltry service in return.

My 2 cents.

[Jiggly]

Great post!

it was the first carefully forumlated thought I have read in the last two hours.

and I have no response.

[BusaDave]

Originally Posted by Triple_Z

But when people started demanding that insurance begin covering the small stuff, the insurance companies acquiesced...and then raised prices.

Have you considered that insurance began covering the small stuff because in the long run they determined that taking care of the small stuff reduces extraordinary losses from claims? How about the idea that companies support such plans for the same reasons? How about the fact that the costs of these services are costs passed along in your premiums that you would have paid anyway; assuming that you got the recommended checkups and preventative care?

[jim schmidt]

We currently have the most expensive health care in the world. And we currently have socialized medicine if you happen to be in the military. Medical malpractice consumes 1 percent of health care dollars. I think that dispenses with three arguments against universal health care. Insurance companies suck up a large portion of our health care dollar, about a fourth I think. That's the reason we have so many uninsured and we don't get the best health care result... despite spending the most.

[Jiggly]

Originally Posted by BusaDave

Have you considered that insurance began covering the small stuff because in the long run they determined that taking care of the small stuff reduces extraordinary losses from claims? How about the idea that companies support such plans for the same reasons? How about the fact that the costs of these services are costs passed along in your premiums that you would have paid anyway; assuming that you got the recommended checkups and preventative care?

Would we be paying them were they not complained about to begin with?

I would rather shell out the $300 every 2 years for a windshield or other expense to keep my insurance record claim free and my premiums lower, so if/when I get into an accident that is a total loss the insurance company wont sit there think it was planned out because I had milked them over the years to get all of my preiums back in frivolous expenses.

I do all my own vehicle maintenance as well, and I do it well, so by your last statement I am assuming that you would mean the insurance company could ask for proof that you had all the maintenance done, all I would have is receipts from autozone that said spark plug or oil filter or water pump. They would have no idea, even though I am not a mechanic that it was done right or that the parts were even put on.

that is IF that is what you were getting at. if not than disregard.

[Jiggly]

Originally Posted by jim schmidt

We currently have the most expensive health care in the world. And we currently have socialized medicine if you happen to be in the military. Medical malpractice consumes 1 percent of health care dollars. I think that dispenses with three arguments against universal health care. Insurance companies suck up a large portion of our health care dollar, about a fourth I think. That's the reason we have so many uninsured and we don't get the best health care result... despite spending the most.

once again the insurance companies are the bad guys. I agree

[BigBadBoom]

Originally Posted by Triple_Z

Actually, if you read Walter Williams' writing (he does a weekly syndicated column for many newspapers around the country IMO...and has since I started reading one back in my college days), I wouldn't necessarily classify him as conservative. He comes in on both sides of the fence, depending upon the issues. And actually, some of his columns are fairly interesting...and oftentimes controversial to the conservative base that reads much of his writings. If you want an about-face, read Molly Ivins...I personally can't stand her writing, but it's interesting nonetheless.

"Vaunted charity that conservatives have in spades"...well, if you're speaking in context to Williams' point of view, you have to understand that charity involves a "voluntary" gift, meaning it is freely given. Personally, pulling tax money from your paycheck and redistributing it is not charity, not when it's a forced percentage. Gifting money to a church, Katrina victims, the Red Cross, etc., would fall under the "charity" category. Charity allows individuals the ability to control the destination of their funds (to a point depending upon the charitable organization) rather than being told what they will be supporting.

The debate that usually comes up about helping your fellow man is not the existence of unemployment or welfare, but the duration for which it lasts. I've got to go with Jiggly here; it isn't supposed to be a lifestyle. Your average term for unemployment benefits is what, about 6 months? Welfare benefits, if you end up applying for them, can be up to 2 years in some states (which have reformed the laws) or longer in others. 2.5 years to find a job, doing something, anything, is enough time. I'm not suggesting life won't be hard; it will. You may be working two jobs, you may be working weekends, etc. If you know anybody single in the DC area trying to buy his/her first condo (as houses are too damn expensive), ask them how much they're working. You won't have the luxury of a 40-hour week. For some folks, this is a motivator to improve. Others just prefer the daily grind. Others fall out.

The auto industry I won't touch because I'm probably going to hit on a personal note and I'm not looking to go there. But I will state that for the time being, unless they're private contractors, the UAW's Jobs Bank program should hopefully be enough to suffice.

Now, the original debate seems to center around the concept of healthcare as a "right". Jim's point about society dictating rights is correct; things do evolve with time. Prohibition and the repeal of it is a perfect example. However, is healthcare something that every individual has a right to? That's a societal opinion. Personally, I liked the Blue Cross plan I had years ago. I didn't deal with the gateway provider crap, I chose my doctor's as I saw fit, etc. Hell, when I was growing up in the early 80s, you paid cash for prescriptions. Most doctor's office visits costed a paltry sum, but your hospitalization kicked in for those major medical events. But when people started demanding that insurance begin covering the small stuff, the insurance companies acquiesced...and then raised prices. The gov't answer was the HMO...and look where we are now. High prices, lack of choices, and less total coverage.

I think socialized medicine is simply another step towards higher costs and inadequate care. My family has a lot of friends who are doctors/surgeons who are getting out of the business as quickly as possible. The money isn't there, malpractice insurance kills you, and the gov't will dictate what it will pay for certain procedures. Where's the incentive? Helping your fellow man is an honorable concept, but it sure as hell isn't the prime motivator for why I go to work everyday.

To help the ranks of the fallen per se, we do have a social safety net. Mandatory health care doesn't broaden that net, it encompasses it. Universal healthcare will cost....ALOT. Sure you can go with the "bulk purchasing" concept, but the lower prices will be in the short-term. HMOs proved this. To cover this additional cost, you're going to have to take it from businesses and working individuals who already work over 1/3 of the year before they begin paying themselves. Sure the concept of helping everybody is great, but unfortunately that costs $$$. As a working guy watching the Social Security fiasco come to a head, I don't want another hand dipping into my paycheck so that I may get a paltry service in return.

My 2 cents.

Again I thank you for getting the thread back on track...