16yr old u.s citizen taken away under Patriot Act by FBI!? - Page 7

Scratch33 · 05-04-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirkeb

Lastly if you think McVeigh did the OKC bombing, or more specificaly, the damage done by the diesel/fertilizer device, then do some research. No way that device did that damage to that building.

Rod38um · 05-04-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FizzerMeTimbers

It's not a conservative oppression tool, its a government oppression tool. No one should be surprised Obama isn't doing much about it. It sounds like you don't mind any government action no matter how severe as long as it's in the name of fighting terrorism or "assessing threats against our country". How about if it was your computer that was hacked? Jail and no lawyer indefinitely sounds ok to you? There is a very good reason due process is such a big deal here.

No, its not ok with me, like I said "While I don’t want my government just stopping by and picking up kids for interrogation" But I do want my government to know about these threats and I do want them checked out and to do that logically, the Kid has to be taken into custody. I dont like but there is a need and there is no clear cut way to simplify this that would make everyone happy.

FizzerMeTimbers · 05-04-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dasnotty1

are you dumb? were have you been since 2001. the goverment is taking a strong stand against any kind of threats.Especially a home grown one, maybe they're gonna make an example of this kid. The system is not perfect nothing is not even my spelling. And i'm not being graded here for my spelling so fuc spell check. Your probabaly one of those people that if the kid did blow something up would be blaming the goverment for not catching him before committing the act.

You're damn right it's not perfect. There has been a lot of infringements on the rights of people lately, and conveniently enough, a lot of people like you who firmly believe the government can do whatever they want to keep us safe from the boogie man.

Rod38um · 05-04-2009, 02:22 PM

No you have me all wrong, I only want the government to do whats necessary to keep me safe from the boogie man.... no more, no less. The last thing I want is a bigger more intrusive government. Just the bare essentials please.........

FizzerMeTimbers · 05-04-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod38um

No, its not ok with me, like I said "While I don’t want my government just stopping by and picking up kids for interrogation" But I do want my government to know about these threats and I do want them checked out and to do that logically, the Kid has to be taken into custody. I dont like but there is a need and there is no clear cut way to simplify this that would make everyone happy.

Nobody is saying the kid shouldn't be investigated. I'm pretty sure they had a way of dealing with kids like this before the patriot act. The point is the ability of the government to take you from your home for "suspicion" of something, and take away all your rights as a citizen to keep you in jail indefinitely is a scary thought. You see what we mean, right?

prodigal27 · 05-04-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod38um

Obviously this kid or someone using his IP address was communicating with someone he shouldn’t have been and making threatening statements. So YES I want that checked out and if that means the kid has to be questioned and even held if the questioning reveals something...... I'll accept that.

That is an assumption, the Patriot Act is idiotic. Let's go back 10 years, if the kid was arrested back then for making bomb threats, we would know in more detail why he was arrested, that they the had evidence to charge him, and the kid would have a lawyer to represent him in his defense. Keep in mind, having a defense isn't an admission of innocence or guilt, it's simply a legal representation of your rights as a citizen, and your options.
This individual was DENIED these basic rights. And let's not forget he's a minor. Lets look realistically here, he was 16. The 9/11 hijackers were well aged, and had years of training. Don't even try to compare a 16 year old (possible moron), to a plane hijacker.
It's not a matter of simply being checked out, it completely neutralizes your rights without having any requirement for just cause.

636blurr · 05-04-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch33

Incorrect. The only information anyone has to go on is the news article.

Scratch normally I consider you to be a fairly intelligent individual, but you are in la la land on this one.

I suggest you read up on the patriot act.

And I also suggest you read up on this article.

Homeland Security on guard for 'right-wing extremists' Guess what scratch, your service to the country wasnt so appreciated after all.

FizzerMeTimbers · 05-04-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod38um

No you have me all wrong, I only want the government to do whats necessary to keep me safe from the boogie man.... no more, no less. The last thing I want is a bigger more intrusive government. Just the bare essentials please.........

serious?

Scratch33 · 05-04-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 636blurr

Scratch normally I consider you to be a fairly intelligent individual, but you are in la la land on this one.

And if I were here supporting the Patriot Act, you might have a point.

But I'm not. I think the kid should have access to a lawyer; and I believe that any charges against him should be made public. I don't agree with this being conducted in secret.

That's a different animal, however, from automatically believing there's no substance to the charges simply because the government is using oppressive tactics.

Rod38um · 05-04-2009, 02:32 PM

Yes and I aggree that its a scary thought. and a typical 16 year old boy from suburbia is not the intended target of this legislation. Its the extremist with foreign ties and resources who flee before the action of contacting judges, presenting evidence, issuing and obtaing a warrant and finally acting on that warrant... can be accomplished. Like I said...... there is no easy answer that will make everyone happy.

636blurr · 05-04-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scratch33

And if I were here supporting the Patriot Act, you might have a point.

But I'm not. I think the kid should have access to a lawyer; and I believe that any charges against him should be made public. I don't agree with this being conducted in secret.

That's a different animal, however, from automatically believing there's no substance to the charges simply because the government is using oppressive tactics.

you have the right to a speedy trial for starters, holding the kid for months on what exactly? There is no debate on this, you have actual murderers let off for far less bullshit than is tolerated if you label someone a "terrorist"

its fucking wrong, I dont care how you spin it.

FizzerMeTimbers · 05-04-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod38um

Yes and I aggree that its a scary thought. and a typical 16 year old boy from suburbia is not the intended target of this legislation. Its the extremist with foreign ties and resources who flee before the action of contacting judges, presenting evidence, issuing and obtaing a warrant and finally acting on that warrant... can be accomplished. Like I said...... there is no easy answer that will make everyone happy.

Yea you did say that. You also said,

"So YES I want that checked out and if that means the kid has to be questioned and even held if the questioning reveals something...... I'll accept that."

You shouldn't accept that.

Rod38um · 05-04-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 636blurr

you have the right to a speedy trial for starters, holding the kid for months on what exactly? There is no debate on this, you have actual murderers let off for far less bullshit than is tolerated if you label someone a "terrorist"

its fucking wrong, I dont care how you spin it.

I dont think anyone is saying its right.... but there is a flip side to the arguement.......... if the government didnt do anything in all the other cases and attacks were being carried out on you or your family.... you would be bitching about that too....

Scratch33 · 05-04-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 636blurr

you have the right to a speedy trial for starters, holding the kid for months on what exactly? There is no debate on this, you have actual murderers let off for far less bullshit than is tolerated if you label someone a "terrorist"

its fucking wrong, I dont care how you spin it.

I'm not 'spinning' anything, and in case you missed my last post, I agree the charges should be made public and the kid shouldn't be held incommunicado.

As for the concept of a "right to a speedy trial" - yeah, that sounds good in print. While it's nice to believe that there aren't any examples of prolonged incarceration before trial, even well prior to the Patriot Act it's generally not been the case. Now, just because I've pointed out that unfortunate fact, please don't spin that as me supporting it. 'kay?

636blurr · 05-04-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod38um

I dont think anyone is saying its right.... but there is a flip side to the arguement.......... if the government didnt do anything in all the other cases and attacks were being carried out on you or your family.... you would be bitching about that too....

Hey, how about that, I perceive you as a threat, better to just cap your ass just in case eh champ?

I mean you could be the next wackjob to shoot up a church or a school.

I have fucking backpacked in other countries where most of you cry babies need a machine gun and an entire brigade to escort your sorry scared asses. THE WORLD IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU!!!! Hell I met a couple of guys who had backpacked across the middleast before the war.

Fucking sissies.

BOOO!!

Oh yea, and nothing implimented since 911 would have STOPPED what happened, not one fucking thing.