Gun Nuts - is a gun show worth it?

[Teej]

The Kellerman statistic says something about "43 times more likely to be shot by your own gun" or something like that.

First dealing with a triviality of language, it's 43 times [b]as[b] likely, not more likely.

More to the point, that 43 comes from

...for every killed intruder, there are
1.3 accidental deaths in the home
3.6 criminal homicide
37 suicides

Some _fraction_ of the 3.6 is probably an intruder getting to your gun before you do.

However, this statistic is only valid for the 1 out of 15 times that the "defender" actually has to fire a shot AND the intruder actually dies. And I'll bet it's a tiny fraction of the "shots fired" that result in the intruder being killed versus wounded or just scared off.

[Teej]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

but a 20 guage really has NO recoil to speak of

Again, that depends entirely on the load, not the gauge in and of itself.

You can shoot a 7/8 oz load to 1300 fps in both guns. If the 12ga weighs 7.5 pounds and the 20 ga weighs 6.5, you're getting more kick from the 20ga. I promise.

[f2benny]

deleted rather than argue with fool

[MeinGlänzendMotorrad]

Originally Posted by MrR2009

did you know your actually more likely to be shot by your personal gun in your home, than being shot by somebody else? So if you have a alarm system and a pitbull why do you need a gun?

Did you know that you can make statistics say whatever you want?

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by Teej

Again, that depends entirely on the load, not the gauge in and of itself.

You can shoot a 7/8 oz load to 1300 fps in both guns. If the 12ga weighs 7.5 pounds and the 20 ga weighs 6.5, you're getting more kick from the 20ga. I promise.

Ok Col. COoper Im gonna make this simple on ya.
First off your arguing over absolutly nothing whatsoever, there is zero reason at all to buy a fucking 12 guage if your not going to use it to its capacity.
None.
Second. and this is the most important, the vast, vast majority of the people on this planet are better off shooting small calibre weapons as it helps to eliminate the flinch/jerk factor and does not make them afraid of said weopon. you can take a .357, let someone shoot it, ask them "oh to much" pop in a .38 and mentally it will already have an effect on that person if the .357 bothered them, some will get over it, others will not.
So if a person is comfortable shooting a .22 browning buckmark, but not comfortable shooting a 50cal desert eagle, then they should get the .22 buckmark, the person who hits said target the most accuratly wins. The jack ass with the desert eagle who just emptied a clip, put year round venting in his house, and just got beat to death by his own empty club by said robber is the only real loser.

[Teej]

Oh lordy, where do I even start.

First, bad example on the pistol. Given that I'm talking about shooting _SIMILAR LOADS_ it would be like the difference between shooting a .38 spl out of a 2" barrel vs out of a 4" barrel.... or perhaps out of a super airweight vs a standard frame.

It's the same concept as folks who reload their own .357 and get .38 power out of it for cheaper practice.

Further, I just did some looking online and the best buck round I can find in 20ga is 20 pellets of #3. Not terrible, but I'd really prefer #1 or larger. I still say it is absolutely ridiculous to use bird shot in home defense. Bird shot is made to kill birds. Buck shot is made to stop bucks.

Which do you want to use on the 220 pound thug coming through your window?

Use all the birdshot you like. I wish you the best of luck.

[emw]

Got any links to ads to show that the 20 ga is cheaper?

[Teej]

636:

Look...I agreed that a 20ga is probably sufficient if you can find the right load. Birdshot need not apply.

I have similarly conceded that (duh) a maxed out 12ga load is a ballbreaker compared to a standard 20ga. No argument.

But a light loaded 12ga will kick LESS than a similar load in a 12ga because the gun absorbs more due to its weight. I'm pretty new to shotguns (although I do quite well with them...and have tens of thousands of pistol rounds behind me from .22LR through .44 mag) and AS a new shotgunner I've shot both "side by side" in comparable guns and a light 12ga load absolutely kicked less than a standard (similar to the light 12) 20ga load.

For right now, my HD gun is still my .40. (shrug)

[Ozy]

Originally Posted by MrR2009

another random fact, did you know that in Texas if more than 3 native americans are on your property, it can be considered an attack and you are allowed to begin shooting?

I wonder if that works with Aboriginals

They roll 5 deep

[KBacon]

20ga is not cheaper and neither is the ammo.

I've got my Browning BPS 12 ga for home defense.. it doubles as my turkey gun.

As far as to the OPs original question... gun shows are generally a waste.. the big one around here they charge you to park.. charge you an entrance fee... then most of the gun prices are jacked up because the booth rental keeps going up. Best deals are normally from individuals walking around trying to sell their personal gun.. which the brokers won't give them anything for... also no background check needed for this type of transaction (here in Indy anyways).

You're better off making buddy's w/ one of the local gun shops... but around here that can be kinda hard... they don't even wanna talk to you if you're not a "regular customer".

I worked the gun counter at the local Gander Mountain for 3 yrs and loved it.. but needed a job that actually paid $$$$. I know that Gander will give you the best price... and will match any local gun shop/store... and ALWAYS ask the manager for a better price... They also had a great used gun program.. where all my guns came from. They would give the customer 70% of blue book for their gun.. and then sell it for blue book. Also the used guns were a little more negotiable than the new ones.

Are you wanting a dedicated home defense/"tactical" shotgun setup? Or just a good all around shotgun that doubles as home defense? Mossberg 500 is a great gun for the $$$ and can be had in many configurations from "tactical" to hunting. If you're not going for the "tactical" style.. then a good ole 500 w/ a 26" barrel will work just fine... and if you ever decide you want to take it hunting... you won't need to go out and buy another gun. You can always buy the shorter barrel, tactical stock, ect.... and add them to the gun. And if you ever go to sell it.. it'll be worth more... esp if you keep everything in good shape.

Guns I'd recommend would be:
Remington 870
Mossberg 500
Winchester 1500 (no longer made)
Benelli Nova / SuperNova
Stoeger P350 (same basic gun as Benelli Nova just a lil more stripped down)

Check out Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mtn, Dicks, or any other local gun shops that you can find. Unless you're looking for something special.. I don't know if I'd really recommend gun broker or other online source as you'll have to find a local FFL to ship to and alot of times they'll charge you a fee for the background check and transfer.. at Gander we charged $35 for this.. but last I heard they were raising the price.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by Teej

Oh lordy, where do I even start.

First, bad example on the pistol. Given that I'm talking about shooting _SIMILAR LOADS_ it would be like the difference between shooting a .38 spl out of a 2" barrel vs out of a 4" barrel.... or perhaps out of a super airweight vs a standard frame.

It's the same concept as folks who reload their own .357 and get .38 power out of it for cheaper practice.

Further, I just did some looking online and the best buck round I can find in 20ga is 20 pellets of #3. Not terrible, but I'd really prefer #1 or larger. I still say it is absolutely ridiculous to use bird shot in home defense. Bird shot is made to kill birds. Buck shot is made to stop bucks.

Which do you want to use on the 220 pound thug coming through your window?

Use all the birdshot you like. I wish you the best of luck.

See this is what I always find entertaining. first off .people spend something like 80 percent of their time away from home, so the odds of you even being home when your home is burglarised is pretty slim.
Second, the attitude that when someone kicks in your door you will have your weopon in hand and be completly prepared to deal with said person.
Also when you do confront that person and you ahve your weopon you will be calm cool and like sylvestor stallone, able to put every rnd right between his eyes, you will then smoke your cigarrette while you call the police who will shake your hand while the EMTs take out the corpse.
The reality is that your weopon is more than likely not gonna be anywhere near you, and in fact, the assailent may be between you and your weopon. so what do you do then? Do you have the capability to deal with the said attacker without your weopon? Not assuming, do you really possess that ability? And how do you think that will go should that really happen.
Now lets more on a little more, your home, its late at night, the assailent just kicked in your door, you were in the middle of a dream fucking your wifes best friend, now your trying to figure out where you are as crashes come from part of your house, you muddle, knocking over shit while you reach for the light and your weopon. Your heart beats fast wondering if someone really is in your house, or its a pet, rodent, or one of your children getting in the cooky jar, now you get up, crust filled eyes to go look for the intruder, you find one, but the intruder is not like you always practiced, he's not standing broadside to you with his weopon at his side, he's bent over partially behind the couch grabbing CDs, so now what? Do you yell? the most likely scenerio and he turns and points a gun straight at you, now again, I ask you what now? R you going to be calm and still sylvestor stallone and drop him in his track, will you duck ? or will you piss yourself and beg for your life?
THe only thing that is sure of any of those is you are more than likely not going to react like you think you will, why becouse when shit like this happens its more like I just told it, your not ready, they are not ready, and things just are not going right.
now before you get all tough and runnin your mouth how your sylvestor stallone again, let me just remind you that people flinch when a rubber band is pointed at them, so the odds of you or the assailent exchanging accurate gunfire are veyr very slim indeed, the evidence is in simply reading on self defense situations and looking at video tape of those.
Even trained professionals such as Swat have choked and having the drop on someone, completly fucking missed. It happens.
So you I suggest to you a couple of things, one Play some more video games and get your tough man ego going some more.
Or two, go get actual realistic feedback training, take a tactical school, play alot of paintball so your used to @ least simulated gunfire and the muzzle of a gun being pointed at you. Also take some MMA classes and keep it real so you may have a chance against bubba the escaped mental patient.

And last having been shot at and shot from a shotgun I will say this, I was elbows and ass the first time, and trust me, I will never forget the sound of those BBs tearing up the earth around me and ticking in the tree limbs, I also will never forget running and hearing hte second blast that went well straight in the air for all I know.
When I was shot several times by bird shot, it was from a good distance, so its effect was minmized, however it fucking hurt, and left welts for days on end. This was @ 40yrds or so.
I can also say I was with a guy, a total piece of shit for a human being who for kicks dropped a deer with birdshot just to see if it could happen, it did, took a couple shots, but @ roughly 20 yrds that deer didnt like life whatsoever.
I will also say this, being on the recieving end of a highcalibre fire arm fucking sucks, and you may think your a badass, but when your staring down the buisness end things change in a hurry, specially if there is more than one.

So you can chew on that, you can reply if you want, I really dont care, just a little bit of reality for ya.

And BTW, when I was young, I used yoru exact same argument, even having been in some of those situations, now IM older, and understand what the elders experienced said about most of it relaly doenst matter, just a like a bike, use whatever is comfortable to you.

[636blurr]

Originally Posted by KBacon

20ga is not cheaper and neither is the ammo.

I've got my Browning BPS 12 ga for home defense.. it doubles as my turkey gun.

As far as to the OPs original question... gun shows are generally a waste.. the big one around here they charge you to park.. charge you an entrance fee... then most of the gun prices are jacked up because the booth rental keeps going up. Best deals are normally from individuals walking around trying to sell their personal gun.. which the brokers won't give them anything for... also no background check needed for this type of transaction (here in Indy anyways).

You're better off making buddy's w/ one of the local gun shops... but around here that can be kinda hard... they don't even wanna talk to you if you're not a "regular customer".

I worked the gun counter at the local Gander Mountain for 3 yrs and loved it.. but needed a job that actually paid $$$$. I know that Gander will give you the best price... and will match any local gun shop/store... and ALWAYS ask the manager for a better price... They also had a great used gun program.. where all my guns came from. They would give the customer 70% of blue book for their gun.. and then sell it for blue book. Also the used guns were a little more negotiable than the new ones.

Are you wanting a dedicated home defense/"tactical" shotgun setup? Or just a good all around shotgun that doubles as home defense? Mossberg 500 is a great gun for the $$$ and can be had in many configurations from "tactical" to hunting. If you're not going for the "tactical" style.. then a good ole 500 w/ a 26" barrel will work just fine... and if you ever decide you want to take it hunting... you won't need to go out and buy another gun. You can always buy the shorter barrel, tactical stock, ect.... and add them to the gun. And if you ever go to sell it.. it'll be worth more... esp if you keep everything in good shape.

Guns I'd recommend would be:
Remington 870
Mossberg 500
Winchester 1500 (no longer made)
Benelli Nova / SuperNova
Stoeger P350 (same basic gun as Benelli Nova just a lil more stripped down)

Check out Cabelas, Bass Pro, Gander Mtn, Dicks, or any other local gun shops that you can find. Unless you're looking for something special.. I don't know if I'd really recommend gun broker or other online source as you'll have to find a local FFL to ship to and alot of times they'll charge you a fee for the background check and transfer.. at Gander we charged $35 for this.. but last I heard they were raising the price.

Good sensible post. well said

[mtre23]

Originally Posted by Ozy

I wonder if that works with Aboriginals

They roll 5 deep

[Ozy]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

See this is what I always find entertaining. first off .people spend something like 80 percent of their time away from home, so the odds of you even being home when your home is burglarised is pretty slim.
Second, the attitude that when someone kicks in your door you will have your weopon in hand and be completly prepared to deal with said person.
Also when you do confront that person and you ahve your weopon you will be calm cool and like sylvestor stallone, able to put every rnd right between his eyes, you will then smoke your cigarrette while you call the police who will shake your hand while the EMTs take out the corpse.
The reality is that your weopon is more than likely not gonna be anywhere near you, and in fact, the assailent may be between you and your weopon. so what do you do then? Do you have the capability to deal with the said attacker without your weopon? Not assuming, do you really possess that ability? And how do you think that will go should that really happen.
Now lets more on a little more, your home, its late at night, the assailent just kicked in your door, you were in the middle of a dream fucking your wifes best friend, now your trying to figure out where you are as crashes come from part of your house, you muddle, knocking over shit while you reach for the light and your weopon. Your heart beats fast wondering if someone really is in your house, or its a pet, rodent, or one of your children getting in the cooky jar, now you get up, crust filled eyes to go look for the intruder, you find one, but the intruder is not like you always practiced, he's not standing broadside to you with his weopon at his side, he's bent over partially behind the couch grabbing CDs, so now what? Do you yell? the most likely scenerio and he turns and points a gun straight at you, now again, I ask you what now? R you going to be calm and still sylvestor stallone and drop him in his track, will you duck ? or will you piss yourself and beg for your life?
THe only thing that is sure of any of those is you are more than likely not going to react like you think you will, why becouse when shit like this happens its more like I just told it, your not ready, they are not ready, and things just are not going right.
now before you get all tough and runnin your mouth how your sylvestor stallone again, let me just remind you that people flinch when a rubber band is pointed at them, so the odds of you or the assailent exchanging accurate gunfire are veyr very slim indeed, the evidence is in simply reading on self defense situations and looking at video tape of those.
Even trained professionals such as Swat have choked and having the drop on someone, completly fucking missed. It happens.
So you I suggest to you a couple of things, one Play some more video games and get your tough man ego going some more.
Or two, go get actual realistic feedback training, take a tactical school, play alot of paintball so your used to @ least simulated gunfire and the muzzle of a gun being pointed at you. Also take some MMA classes and keep it real so you may have a chance against bubba the escaped mental patient.

And last having been shot at and shot from a shotgun I will say this, I was elbows and ass the first time, and trust me, I will never forget the sound of those BBs tearing up the earth around me and ticking in the tree limbs, I also will never forget running and hearing hte second blast that went well straight in the air for all I know.
When I was shot several times by bird shot, it was from a good distance, so its effect was minmized, however it fucking hurt, and left welts for days on end. This was @ 40yrds or so.
I can also say I was with a guy, a total piece of shit for a human being who for kicks dropped a deer with birdshot just to see if it could happen, it did, took a couple shots, but @ roughly 20 yrds that deer didnt like life whatsoever.
I will also say this, being on the recieving end of a highcalibre fire arm fucking sucks, and you may think your a badass, but when your staring down the buisness end things change in a hurry, specially if there is more than one.

So you can chew on that, you can reply if you want, I really dont care, just a little bit of reality for ya.

And BTW, when I was young, I used yoru exact same argument, even having been in some of those situations, now IM older, and understand what the elders experienced said about most of it relaly doenst matter, just a like a bike, use whatever is comfortable to you.

Holly flying spaghetti monsters, i'm printing this post and framing it Blurr.

"What do you do?"

[Teej]

Originally Posted by 636blurr

now before you get all tough and runnin your mouth how your sylvestor stallone again,

Never....ever...have I given this attitude, at least intentionally.

If that's something you got from me - I apologize. I don't carry a chip on my shoulder or (intentionally) a 'tude. I'm quite laid back.

That said...while I haven't shot anyone nor been shot at, I have had 2 different potential "home defense" situations.

I was not properly prepared for the first one, and while it turned out to be harmless...I was mostly happy with the way I responded. However, it made me stop and think and come up with a list of possible situations and actions. When the second (again, thankfully non issue) event occurred...I was more comfortable with my reactions, movement, and the location of my phone and flashlight...not to mention my plans for dealing with the situation.