Are You Getting Ripped Off by 'Hot Gas' ??

[750rider]

Are You Getting Ripped Off by 'Hot Gas'?
Nine Lawsuits Claim Gas Stations in U.S. Should Control for Outside Temperature to Make Sure Fuel Doesn't Expand

April 9, 2007 — Consumers are feeling the pain at the pump, as gas prices have risen for nine straight weeks. Now lawsuits around the country claim drivers are being ripped off in a gas gouge they can't even see.

There are at least nine lawsuits pending that claim some gas stations are padding their profits by selling warm gasoline.

That might sound strange, but think back to high school physics. Liquids expand as they get warmer, so if the gasoline at the pump is overheated, you don't get as much in your tank.

Mark Rushing is a long-distance trucker. When he fuels up, every penny counts.

"Fifty-eight gallons of gas cost me $168 dollars," Rushing said.

But he says he often overpays because gas stations don't follow the fuel industry's own standard that gas should be sold at 60 degrees Fahrenheit.

When the temperature outside gets above 60, gasoline at the pump expands, and you get less of it.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Consumer/s...3022167&page=1

[nismo_2005]

damn it kinda makes me glad i got gas while it was cold out today.

[Mantis]

I've actually read that you should buy gasoline in the morning to maximize your fuel dollars (but who the hell likes pumping gas on the way to work in the morning??)

[modette]

The amount is so small from my understanding. Not sure what they want the station to do, if the tank is underground there is nothing they can do. If the tank is above ground not much you can do but put in a below ground tank or maybe paint the tanks white or a roof over them.

Propane also expands when it is warm out, so in the summer a customer would get less if you let it fill till the tank shut-off float kicks in vs going by the weight. In the winter you make sure to go by the weight, so that the person does not leave the tank sit till summer when the gas may expand with the warm and blow out the back of the value. You are talking like .1 lbs...not enough to matter to the price.

[emw]

That's silly.

The things people sue for these days. Folks, if you don't like the price of gas, don't drive an SUV. Or buy a more fuel efficient car. Or ride a motorcycle.

But whatever you do, don't bitch at the same time you pump your gas.

[Krazy Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by modette

The amount is so small from my understanding. Not sure what they want the station to do, if the tank is underground there is nothing they can do. If the tank is above ground not much you can do but put in a below ground tank or maybe paint the tanks white or a roof over them.

Propane also expands when it is warm out, so in the summer a customer would get less if you let it fill till the tank shut-off float kicks in vs going by the weight. In the winter you make sure to go by the weight, so that the person does not leave the tank sit till summer when the gas may expand with the warm and blow out the back of the value. You are talking like .1 lbs...not enough to matter to the price.

Right..... think on VOLUME selling the petro bitches are already doing you up the pooper.... when they sell millions of gallons that so called .1lb becomes enough to buy the fucking station......

[Krazy Hawaiian]

Oh and there is LOTs they can do to underground tanks. Insulation is one. Insulating a tank for a new instal wouldn't add much to its overall cost. Already installed are a problem. But making it a requirement for insulating new replacement tanks would also help. Tanks need replaced about every 5-10 years in general due to leakage.

[SloppyJoseph]

I was freezing my ass off this morning pumping some gas and i got to thinkin. Gas stations have only two tanks maybe. One for gas and one for diesel. Now how the hell are there different grades of gas if it comes outa the same tank? Are the special additives that they put in there? I might be missing something here. And if it is obvious, ima feel like a tard.

[Krazy Hawaiian]

nope they have several tanks... look at the ground around them. See all the fill holes? Even the 6 pump Union by my house has 4 tanks. I know because I watched them be replaces...[/i]

[robert_s_hunter]

Actually, the quantities involved are quite significant. Temperature shift causes a rather dramatic effect on a fuel's BTU content per a given volume. This is why F1 teams, during the era of tank volume restrictions, would freeze their fuel in order to allow them to increase the fuel's energy density. It effectively increased the tank volume, as the fuel expanded when it warmed.

There is no need to insulate tanks, or worry about whether they're above-ground or under-ground. Modern fuel pumps are capable of compensating for fuel temperature, in fact it's a legal requirement in Europe. The pump's computer simply adjusts the display of the volume based on a scale related to the fuel's current temp, correlated to a standardized temp, and many pumps simply have a switch to engage this function. Interestingly, bulk purchasers already get this service, as the fuel-racks used to fill tanker trucks dispense fuel on a temperature-based measurement.

As I'm a long-time member of the trade organization that got this ball rolling, I'm glad to see that others are starting to give a damn.....

[Stangman33]

Originally Posted by robert_s_hunter

Actually, the quantities involved are quite significant. Temperature shift causes a rather dramatic effect on a fuel's BTU content per a given volume. This is why F1 teams, during the era of tank volume restrictions, would freeze their fuel in order to allow them to increase the fuel's energy density. It effectively increased the tank volume, as the fuel expanded when it warmed.

There is no need to insulate tanks, or worry about whether they're above-ground or under-ground. Modern fuel pumps are capable of compensating for fuel temperature, in fact it's a legal requirement in Europe. The pump's computer simply adjusts the display of the volume based on a scale related to the fuel's current temp, correlated to a standardized temp, and many pumps simply have a switch to engage this function. Interestingly, bulk purchasers already get this service, as the fuel-racks used to fill tanker trucks dispense fuel on a temperature-based measurement.

As I'm a long-time member of the trade organization that got this ball rolling, I'm glad to see that others are starting to give a damn.....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think that the energy density has anything to do with how they sell it to you since it all gets burned at atmospheric temperature anyway. I think the only thing freezing fuel would do is lower combustion chamber temp allowing for a hotter burn therefore producing more power.

[robert_s_hunter]

Originally Posted by Stangman33

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think that the energy density has anything to do with how they sell it to you since it all gets burned at atmospheric temperature anyway. I think the only thing freezing fuel would do is lower combustion chamber temp allowing for a hotter burn therefore producing more power.

Two different issues..... I pointed out the F1 practice of freezing fuel to illustrate that temperature does indeed influence it's volume.

Currently, fuel is sold here by a simple measurement of it's absolute volume. As fuel expands when it's temperature rises, and contracts as it cools, this means that you are getting less energy (BTU's) when the fuel is "hot" than when it is "cold". So, when you buy fuel when it's reached it's hottest point during the day, you get fewer BTU's per dollar and vice versa. When a pump compensates for this thermal expansion, it adjusts the display to reflect an "equivalent" to the fuel's volume at a specific temperature. Then you would get a "gallon" of more than an absolute gallon, when the fuel is "hot", and less when the fuel is "cold". Thus, you would get EXACTLY what you've paid for..... Which the Europeans, and bulk fuel purchasers, already do.

On a modern fuel-injected vehicle, an engine's ECU adjusts it's fueling based on this principle. A simpler example would be the difference in the carb jetting between two otherwise identical engines, one running on gasoline (high BTU per volume) and one running on alcohol (low BTU per volume). The gas engine
would run much smaller jets due to the higher BTU content, while the alcohol engine would be jetted to flow a significantly higher volume of fuel, in order to provide each engine with the necessary BTU for proper operation.

The practice of freezing fuel in F1 was used to allow teams to put, what would have been at ambient temperature, more than 150L of fuel into a 150L tank. The fuel had to be heated before it was introduced into the engine in order to achieve optimum fuel atomization. A fuel at such a low temperature would actually cause a reduction in power.

[kch88]

Gas stations generally have 3 tanks. One high grade, one low grade, and one diesel. With the high grade and low grade together they mix them in certain quantities to get whatever octane rating they want.

[robert_s_hunter]

Originally Posted by kch88

Gas stations generally have 3 tanks. One high grade, one low grade, and one diesel. With the high grade and low grade together they mix them in certain quantities to get whatever octane rating they want.

Sorry, but you're incorrect in this assumption. Each type and grade of fuel is stored in seperate tanks. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I once worked for Royal Dutch-Shell Oil.....

[Krazy Hawaiian]

Originally Posted by robert_s_hunter

Sorry, but you're incorrect in this assumption. Each type and grade of fuel is stored in seperate tanks. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I once worked for Royal Dutch-Shell Oil.....

Also I mentioned it too.... there is a storage tank for EACH grade they sell. No doubts there.